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Post by agedhippie on Mar 22, 2020 13:07:44 GMT -5
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To restrict their business with an exclusive contract with Vdex in not in the interest of Mannkind, they would love to have many clinics right next to each other competing to sell Afrezza! So, my guess is such an exclusive is only interesting for Mannkind, if it provides a massive incentive.
... What exactly do you mean by " exclusive contract" with Mannkind and why do you think one is on the table or being asked for? I am unaware of there ever being an exclusive contract deal being on offer. Besides which the existing distribution contracts would not allow that constraint. A doctor will always be free to prescribe any drug, and a contracted distributor will be free to distribute it. |
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Post by sportsrancho on Mar 22, 2020 13:18:20 GMT -5
This is what I think... that was an idea that Vdex could go into the states that Mannkind had abandoned. With a distributor contract. But that would not stop Mannkind from going back into those states ...it was only so that another clinic couldn’t set up shop within a certain mile radius and also sell Afrezza with the same kind of agreement. Nevertheless the whole thing is void as far as I know. The word abandon is probably not correct either...there are just some states that there are no reps and they aren’t getting covered because there are areas with a lot of white out. Too far for the reps to drive between Endo’s.
Well, last week Mannkind made about $1.4mil with 830 scripts and about 45% earning rate. They are also 50% up from last year on a solid trend which went on for several years now.
There is no immediate need for cash (and hopefully some more milestone payments)
So I hope for this company to show green numbers potentially within two years (they only have roughly double the scripts provided they make a little more bucks through other channels).
To restrict their business with an exclusive contract with Vdex in not in the interest of Mannkind, they would love to have many clinics right next to each other competing to sell Afrezza! So, my guess is such an exclusive is only interesting for Mannkind, if it provides a massive incentive. If Vdex would offer $50mil for a 10year contract or something like that, it would help Mannkind in it current position, but only in a sense, that it provides additional security for unforeseen things (an unexpected and expensive lawsuit for example).
Vdex needs Mannkind a lot more than the other way around!
(You have access to their number, but my guess is, that they are not doing too well.. all this fancy Voodoo might slightly increase the patient compliance, but in the end is just much more expensive than a conventional doctor)
First of all, most Vdex patients ultimately get reimbursed through insurance if not at first. And this is something Vdex helps with. But more importantly as almost everyone agrees those who stay on AFREZZA have better control, less hypos and significantly more TIR. So the long term costs in both dollars and quality of life are much better than current practices. And this is also something Vdex is able to do that many endos simply don’t have the time for or think is unecessary under 7.0 As far as calling what Vdex does as “Voodoo” why resort to chiding them about something you do not have any information on. If it were as you say “Voodoo” then why would they be expanding clinics which is a clear sign that they are growing and also have growing acceptance within the diabetic community. The distribution proposal like I said is not on the table, there were many proposals that got overlooked and not even considered.. it would be in Mannkind and Vdex’s best interests to work together. For instance like Bill suggested with some studies. |
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Post by sportsrancho on Mar 22, 2020 13:37:47 GMT -5
It's weird that somehow VDex is perceived by some as an enemy. These are difficult times. VDex is helping people. It is very weird! Makes no common sense. As far as the conflict of interest. With Bill being on the BOD, I can’t speak to that, you clearly know more about it than I do, but it would be nice to have someone on the board that could speak to some different marketing ideas ..they could clearly be overruled, but it would outline more options. |
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Post by longliner on Mar 22, 2020 14:40:34 GMT -5
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To restrict their business with an exclusive contract with Vdex in not in the interest of Mannkind, they would love to have many clinics right next to each other competing to sell Afrezza! So, my guess is such an exclusive is only interesting for Mannkind, if it provides a massive incentive.
... What exactly do you mean by " exclusive contract" with Mannkind and why do you think one is on the table or being asked for? I am unaware of there ever being an exclusive contract deal being on offer. Besides which the existing distribution contracts would not allow that constraint. A doctor will always be free to prescribe any drug, and a contracted distributor will be free to distribute it. Quit the act of outrage, you know exactly what he is referring. Exclusivity to areas Mannkind does not currently service. Unless Bill has changed his tune once again. How are those script sales going? I certainly don't consider Vdex the enemy, I hope they sell the heck out of Afrezza. I just have no idea what value they bring or have brought.🙄 |
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Post by wgreystone on Mar 22, 2020 14:45:53 GMT -5
This is what I think... that was an idea that Vdex could go into the states that Mannkind had abandoned. With a distributor contract. But that would not stop Mannkind from going back into those states ...it was only so that another clinic couldn’t set up shop within a certain mile radius and also sell Afrezza with the same kind of agreement. Nevertheless the whole thing is void as far as I know. The word abandon is probably not correct either...there are just some states that there are no reps and they aren’t getting covered because there are areas with a lot of white out. Too far for the reps to drive between Endo’s.
Well, last week Mannkind made about $1.4mil with 830 scripts and about 45% earning rate. They are also 50% up from last year on a solid trend which went on for several years now.
There is no immediate need for cash (and hopefully some more milestone payments)
So I hope for this company to show green numbers potentially within two years (they only have roughly double the scripts provided they make a little more bucks through other channels).
To restrict their business with an exclusive contract with Vdex in not in the interest of Mannkind, they would love to have many clinics right next to each other competing to sell Afrezza! So, my guess is such an exclusive is only interesting for Mannkind, if it provides a massive incentive. If Vdex would offer $50mil for a 10year contract or something like that, it would help Mannkind in it current position, but only in a sense, that it provides additional security for unforeseen things (an unexpected and expensive lawsuit for example).
Vdex needs Mannkind a lot more than the other way around!
(You have access to their number, but my guess is, that they are not doing too well.. all this fancy Voodoo might slightly increase the patient compliance, but in the end is just much more expensive than a conventional doctor)
The exclusive contract was referring to distribution right. There is no difference to the end users. clinics/doctors can still prescribe Afrezza and patients can still fill up prescription at pharmacies. |
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Post by sportsrancho on Mar 22, 2020 15:08:50 GMT -5
What exactly do you mean by " exclusive contract" with Mannkind and why do you think one is on the table or being asked for? I am unaware of there ever being an exclusive contract deal being on offer. Besides which the existing distribution contracts would not allow that constraint. A doctor will always be free to prescribe any drug, and a contracted distributor will be free to distribute it. Quit the act of outrage, you know exactly what he is referring. Exclusivity to areas Mannkind does not currently service. Unless Bill has changed his tune once again. How are those script sales going? I certainly don't consider Vdex the enemy, I hope they sell the heck out of Afrezza. I just have no idea what value they bring or have brought.🙄 You don’t have the right information. |
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Post by sportsrancho on Mar 22, 2020 15:16:13 GMT -5
Let’s pretend that Mannkind did a deal with Vdex that allowed them to buy Afrezza for the same price McKesson gets it for ..exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius. It has nothing to do with area as far as prescribing Afrezza goes.
But it’s all a mute point.
Vdex just thought it would help Mannkind to go into the pretty much deserted areas. Like New Mexico where the people are less well off, more overweight type2’s. Or some parts of New Mexico. The rent is a little cheaper there in those areas too and the clinics are doing well. They’re also in some high-end areas in LA so it’s a good mix.
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Post by morfu on Mar 22, 2020 16:07:49 GMT -5
Let’s pretend that Mannkind did a deal with Vdex that allowed them to buy Afrezza for the same price McKesson gets it for ..exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius. It has nothing to do with area as far as prescribing Afrezza goes. But it’s all a mute point. Vdex just thought it would help Mannkind to go into the pretty much deserted areas. Like New Mexico where the people are less well off, more overweight type2’s. Or some parts of New Mexico. The rent is a little cheaper there in those areas too and the clinics are doing well. They’re also in some high-end areas in LA so it’s a good mix. I believe we are arguing in circles here.
Mannkind deals with companies like Vdex all the time. If Vdex want to market Afrezza in New Mexico they are certainly welcome to do so, just like their competitors.
For Mannkind it certainly seems better to have more companies to try selling Afrezza in New Mexico by NOT granting any exclusivity.
>> exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius.
What benefit does Mannkind get from such a deal? Again, it is not at all in the interest of Mannkind to restrict this market.
>> And this is something Vdex helps with. But more importantly as almost everyone agrees those who stay on AFREZZA have better control, less hypos and significantly more TIR.
This is what I was referring to as "Voodoo", but most importantly, it comes at a cost (mostly extra manpower I guess).
As admirable the idea is not only to sell Afrezza, but also educate the patient to make good use of it, this is not something copyrighted by Vdex. A good endo should be able to give the same advice, likewise this FB group with Sam for example. While I do agree that the current relative numbers give an edge to Vdex for TIR and such, I think the regular prescription paths are getting better and they just seem cheaper! Vdex is not an enemy, but simply not an efficient way to sell Afrezza, definitely nothing Mannkind "has to support" for free! Granting exclusivity to a potentially inferior process is not smart.. if it is done for free.
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Post by sportsrancho on Mar 22, 2020 16:21:21 GMT -5
Let’s pretend that Mannkind did a deal with Vdex that allowed them to buy Afrezza for the same price McKesson gets it for ..exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius. It has nothing to do with area as far as prescribing Afrezza goes. But it’s all a mute point. Vdex just thought it would help Mannkind to go into the pretty much deserted areas. Like New Mexico where the people are less well off, more overweight type2’s. Or some parts of New Mexico. The rent is a little cheaper there in those areas too and the clinics are doing well. They’re also in some high-end areas in LA so it’s a good mix. I believe we are arguing in circles here.
Mannkind deals with companies like Vdex all the time. If Vdex want to market Afrezza in New Mexico they are certainly welcome to do so, just like their competitors.
For Mannkind it certainly seems better to have more companies to try selling Afrezza in New Mexico by NOT granting any exclusivity.
>> exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius.
What benefit does Mannkind get from such a deal? Again, it is not at all in the interest of Mannkind to restrict this market.
>> And this is something Vdex helps with. But more importantly as almost everyone agrees those who stay on AFREZZA have better control, less hypos and significantly more TIR.
This is what I was referring to as "Voodoo", but most importantly, it comes at a cost (mostly extra manpower I guess).
As admirable the idea is not only to sell Afrezza, but also educate the patient to make good use of it, this is not something copyrighted by Vdex. A good endo should be able to give the same advice, likewise this FB group with Sam for example. While I do agree that the current relative numbers give an edge to Vdex for TIR and such, I think the regular prescription paths are getting better and they just seem cheaper! Vdex is not an enemy, but simply not an efficient way to sell Afrezza, definitely nothing Mannkind "has to support" for free! Granting exclusivity to a potentially inferior process is not smart.. if it is done for free.
I believe it’s a moot point it doesn’t matter. Mannkind could give anybody the same deal they give McKesson ..but it certainly isn’t free. If you buy a certain amount of Afrezza you also could get a deal but isn’t free. Sure a good Endo can give the same advice, but they don’t have the time!! And then the next appointment is 2 to 6 months away. Some of the Mannkind reps were assigning their patients Mannkind buddies so that they’d have somebody to talk to like Sam. But nothing beats scheduled weekly appointments with a CGM, diet and dosing instruction ..until that patient can get the training wheels off and the light goes on! Those are the patients that stay on the drug. |
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Post by longliner on Mar 22, 2020 19:08:08 GMT -5
I believe we are arguing in circles here.
Mannkind deals with companies like Vdex all the time. If Vdex want to market Afrezza in New Mexico they are certainly welcome to do so, just like their competitors.
For Mannkind it certainly seems better to have more companies to try selling Afrezza in New Mexico by NOT granting any exclusivity.
>> exclusive means Mannkind can’t give that same deal to another clinic within a certain mile radius.
What benefit does Mannkind get from such a deal? Again, it is not at all in the interest of Mannkind to restrict this market.
>> And this is something Vdex helps with. But more importantly as almost everyone agrees those who stay on AFREZZA have better control, less hypos and significantly more TIR.
This is what I was referring to as "Voodoo", but most importantly, it comes at a cost (mostly extra manpower I guess).
As admirable the idea is not only to sell Afrezza, but also educate the patient to make good use of it, this is not something copyrighted by Vdex. A good endo should be able to give the same advice, likewise this FB group with Sam for example. While I do agree that the current relative numbers give an edge to Vdex for TIR and such, I think the regular prescription paths are getting better and they just seem cheaper! Vdex is not an enemy, but simply not an efficient way to sell Afrezza, definitely nothing Mannkind "has to support" for free! Granting exclusivity to a potentially inferior process is not smart.. if it is done for free.
I believe it’s a moot point it doesn’t matter. Mannkind could give anybody the same deal they give McKesson ..but it certainly isn’t free. If you buy a certain amount of Afrezza you also could get a deal but isn’t free. Sure a good Endo can give the same advice, but they don’t have the time!! And then the next appointment is 2 to 6 months away. Some of the Mannkind reps were assigning their patients Mannkind buddies so that they’d have somebody to talk to like Sam. But nothing beats scheduled weekly appointments with a CGM, diet and dosing instruction ..until that patient can get the training wheels off and the light goes on! Those are the patients that stay on the drug. They did make the right move hiring you. You know my frustration with not having valid numbers to gauge Vdex as an entity. (I don't want another flipping video, just give me some sales numbers)! |
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Post by falconquest on Mar 22, 2020 21:04:00 GMT -5
I was going to jump into this conversation earlier when I read the "voodoo" comment but figured it was a waste of time due to the facts that sports pointed out. How is it voodoo if your patients have consistently lower A1C's and stay on Afrezza at a higher rate than others?
"I believe we are arguing in circles here." Couldn't agree more!
"What benefit does Mannkind get from such a deal?" Seriously? They get a dedicated clinic with a successful track record of retention instead of the hope that an Endo here or there may be willing to prescribe. Remember, there are no Mannkind salespeople calling on anyone in those areas.
"Again, it is not at all in the interest of Mannkind to restrict this market." (see above)
"A good endo should be able to give the same advice" Is there any proof that they are in these areas? Site evidence.
"Vdex is not an enemy, but simply not an efficient way to sell Afrezza, definitely nothing Mannkind "has to support" for free!" Who said anything about free? They were asking for Distributor level pricing......just like other distributors receive.
"Granting exclusivity to a potentially inferior process is not smart.." Inferior? Inferior to what? They have better patient outcomes and higher retention than anyone.....and you're calling them inferior?
No disrespect but your arguments are not well thought out. Care to make any others that I can shoot holes in?
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Post by morfu on Mar 22, 2020 21:35:52 GMT -5
I was going to jump into this conversation earlier when I read the "voodoo" comment but figured it was a waste of time due to the facts that sports pointed out. How is it voodoo if your patients have consistently lower A1C's and stay on Afrezza at a higher rate than others? "I believe we are arguing in circles here." Couldn't agree more! "What benefit does Mannkind get from such a deal?" Seriously? They get a dedicated clinic with a successful track record of retention instead of the hope that an Endo here or there may be willing to prescribe. Remember, there are no Mannkind salespeople calling on anyone in those areas. "Again, it is not at all in the interest of Mannkind to restrict this market." (see above) "A good endo should be able to give the same advice" Is there any proof that they are in these areas? Site evidence. "Vdex is not an enemy, but simply not an efficient way to sell Afrezza, definitely nothing Mannkind "has to support" for free!" Who said anything about free? They were asking for Distributor level pricing......just like other distributors receive. "Granting exclusivity to a potentially inferior process is not smart.." Inferior? Inferior to what? They have better patient outcomes and higher retention than anyone.....and you're calling them inferior? No disrespect but your arguments are not well thought out. Care to make any others that I can shoot holes in? Vdex is inferior if their treatment cost more per patient. I happen to be very skeptical if their retention advantage will hold up long term (like I already said good endos should be catching up and informed patient have resources like Sam´s FB group)
>> >> another clinic couldn’t set up shop within a certain mile radius >> a dedicated clinic with a successful track record of retention That is very much not the same thing! The first thing describes a very strong market restriction, which is NOT in Mannkinds interest, but serves Vdex. If Vdex want that, they should make an offer for it Mannkind cant refuse.
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Post by goyocafe on Mar 22, 2020 22:38:49 GMT -5
“Vdex is inferior if their treatment cost more per patient.“
So a more expensive car is inferior to a less expensive one? Help me with your logic. A $30 oil change or a $60 oil change is a big price disparity, but not compared to a $3000 engine overhaul as a result of not changing the oil at all. Can’t get my head around your comment.
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Post by longliner on Mar 22, 2020 23:38:20 GMT -5
Always nice to have "sideline boy" shooting holes in arguments.🤣 Please supply some accurate sales information cause the rest is just wind in your sails. No argument....simple sales numbers will do. You see thats how investors make decisions.
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Post by falconquest on Mar 23, 2020 9:15:23 GMT -5
Always nice to have "sideline boy" shooting holes in arguments.🤣 Please supply some accurate sales information cause the rest is just wind in your sails. No argument....simple sales numbers will do. You see thats how investors make decisions. Oh, so "sideline boy" is supposed to be derogatory? I'm quite happy being on the sidelines quite frankly. Have I ever criticised anyone for their strategy? Since Vdex is privately held then you know sales numbers are not available. Do investors also make decisions based on "voodoo" comments? Oh and as you can see, wind in my sails is what I seek wholeheartedly. |
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