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Post by sayhey24 on Nov 21, 2023 8:33:55 GMT -5
Say hey: I disabled the “online now” feature a long time ago (looks like in 2016) when I was a med student and spent wayyyy too much of my time trying to temper the board’s enthusiasm (and getting nowhere). I guess it was my way of making myself less available, even though no one probably cared if I didn’t respond immediately. And I don’t come to age’s defense. I just agree with just about all of his scientific opinions/facts. Aged has more patience and takes more time to develop thoughtful and research-based responses than I do. I appreciate someone doing that so I don’t feel a need to. Sometimes the loudest voice on a board needs to be opposed in order to avoid the “illusory truth effect”, especially when onlookers can’t tell the difference between science and pseudoscience. The problem with logic is that you can have 2 sound arguments that reach different conclusions. The problem isn’t the argument itself, it’s the premise that needs to be truthful and meaningful in order to reach an accurate conclusion. I don’t always see that here, so I try to provide balance, as I always have from the beginning. I have no idea if people respect my opinion. But I do love truth and I will always defend her as much as I can, regardless of who says her name. It just happens to be aged as much as I see and pay attention. Stevil - thanks that explains the online logging. I am an engineer. What I want is root cause because once I know root cause then I can start to figure out how to address the issue. I am not so much about what people claim as "truth" because it is too often politically tainted. What defense are you coming to Aged's rescue on? The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage? That Print will perform better than Technosphere? The fact that there is a link between viral infections (Covid being one) and diabetes but every time I mention it its like when I would tell people several years ago the Covid pandemic did not start from someone eating a bat burger with a side of pangolin fries at a wet market? Or something else grounded in science? BTW - has anyone seen America's doctor lately? Here are a few examples of some things we now know after years of being told otherwise by the medical community. Yes, contrary to the medical community telling us otherwise oxycontin is additive. Spicy foods are not the root cause of ulcers. Sulfonylureas were not the T2 miracle UpJohn claimed and just made a big mess. And we have my all time favorite with the father of metformin in the U.S. saying its a waste of time and causes more damage than it helps. “The most waste in type 2 diabetes is to continuously put people on metformin and sulfonylureas (glyburide, glimepiride, etc.). These drugs have no protective effect on the beta cell, and by the time you figure out what you’re doing, there are no beta cells left to save.” – Dr. Ralph DeFronzo (University of Texas Health Science Center) diatribe.org/the-diatribe-foundation-and-tcoyd-11th-annual-forum |
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Post by agedhippie on Nov 21, 2023 9:25:30 GMT -5
... What defense are you coming to Aged's rescue on? The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage? That Print will perform better than Technosphere? ... This is a good example why people don't like discussing things with you. "What defense are you coming to Aged's rescue on?" This is a good example of what Stevil was talking about. He said he came to my defense but said nothing about rescue and one does not imply the other. In this context rescue was just sniping which you do a lot. "The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage?" No he did not, he just gave up correcting you because you refuse to listen. I have just debunked this statement literally days ago and yet here you are repeating the same stuff yet again. "That Print will perform better than Technosphere?" Where exactly did I say that? This is a good example of you making stuff up. This sort of attack on the person rather than the argument devalues your points because it appears personal. Long term board members probably understand it's how you are and make allowances, but for everyone else it doesn't look good. |
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Post by daisyz on Nov 21, 2023 9:34:07 GMT -5
... What defense are you coming to Aged's rescue on? The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage? That Print will perform better than Technosphere? ... This is a good example why people don't like discussing things with you. "What defense are you coming to Aged's rescue on?" This is a good example of what Stevil was talking about. He said he came to my defense but said nothing about rescue and one does not imply the other. In this context rescue was just sniping which you do a lot. "The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage?" No he did not, he just gave up correcting you because you refuse to listen. I have just debunked this statement literally days ago and yet here you are repeating the same stuff yet again. "That Print will perform better than Technosphere?" Where exactly did I say that? This is a good example of you making stuff up. This sort of attack on the person rather than the argument devalues your points because it appears personal. Long term board members probably understand it's how you are and make allowances, but for everyone else it doesn't look good. [br Not a personal attack, a statement of facts. Nice try though, Agedhippie. |
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Post by stevil on Nov 21, 2023 10:04:54 GMT -5
I appreciate and respect your tenacity for pursuing your goals. You are clearly very driven.
I also appreciate acknowledging you’re an engineer and, in a way, “staying in your lane”. When I first joined this board, I remember one of the first things I noticed was doctors were bashed for being ignorant or lazy because they wouldn’t prescribe Afrezza. It was odd because it even seemed to garner support from past and present moderators. All that to say, I certainly don’t speak for all doctors and I double especially don’t claim to know everything or have all the answers. I don’t mind being challenged- the part that bothers me is when people partially educate themselves on a matter and then think they’re an expert because they know some things more than a doctor. It’d be akin to tearing out a page from a 10,000 page novel and flaunting that you know it better because you memorized that one page but can speak nothing about the other 9,999 pages. Doctors need to be challenged on certain things but - if it were me- I would approach it more with - “I found this. How would you explain x, y, or z since it doesn’t seem to follow a, b, or c.” I can’t tell you how many times in my personal and professional career I made a big stink about something only to later regret thinking I new what I was talking when I was able to look behind the curtain and see the bigger picture. Again, it’s not to say doctors or the profession of medicine is perfect and always correct. But it has been, and continues to be, that any failure regarding Afrezza does not fall on “us” but on MNKD for not giving us a good instruction manual to use their tool or providing a clear path to use it, even if “we” want to. From what I have seen of doctors, we crave knowledge and really want to help our patients. Mounjaro/Ozempic didn’t take a long time to catch fire. We can debate all we want about if it’s safe or not, but you’ve seen firsthand what happens when you hand a doctor excellent trial data with clear understanding on how to dose a medication to get a desired effect.
The other problem is information is nowadays too accessible. Especially now with chat GPT and AI. Without a skilled interpretation, you have no idea how to filter, or even trust that information to be correct. Hell, the part that sucks about medicine is you can even have medical trials share garbage conclusions. It even takes a good amount of skill to sort through trial data, find well vs poorly designed information, identify biases and see if they were thorough enough to correctly account for confounding factors. In a lot of ways, I love math and engineering a whole lot more than medicine. Numbers don’t lie. You can plug numbers in and find 3 different ways to verify it’s true, if needed. Unfortunately, medicine isn’t like that and that’s been one of my greatest struggles to help not only the people on this board understand but also now my own patients. I understand people want simple answers. Human beings are incredibly complex creatures. We live in an even more complicated environment with countless variables that need to be accounted for.
To get back to answering your question- I was responding to your question about how I seemed to take aged’s side of the argument. That was your claim, not mine. My posts speak for themselves regarding which issue(s) I’ve defended. Another part of aged’s, and now my criticism of your posts is that you receive an answer but seemingly immediately disregard it. This is proof to that end. You cannot recall which points of yours I have tried to refute. I don’t keep a log, but off hand, it was that you didn’t believe insulin resistance was a real phenomenon, you thought a diseased pancreas secreted ineffective goo rather than insulin, and you keep pounding the table on COVID being an underlying cause of diabetes. It could be a different protein than the spike protein (if COVID causes diabetes at all, which I don’t happen to agree with) that causes diabetes, but we’ve now vaccinated probably 300 million people with an mRNA vaccine that quite literally manufactures the spike protein to greater levels than many infections. And people are getting exposed and re-exposed to it - some as many now as 5 times. We’d expect a much greater number to be getting diabetes if COVID is the cause.
I also came to ages defense regarding the ELS claim you kept bringing up. He said he hasn’t been concerned about that for a long time. You kept pressing so I stepped in to correctly identify the early concern for IPF and lung malignancy because insulin was a growth hormone and Exubera started showing signs it may cause lung problems before it was taken off the market. Again, I place the blame for this long held failure to educate doctors on MNKD. I have worked closely with several reps. I have been given many company sponsored Afrezza information booklets. None of them explain the science of FDKP, how it passes through the alveoli intact and then dissolves once it crosses into the blood. I learned about all of this on this board. I also have been completely unaware of the decade plus of CT screenings that showed no structural damage except for on this board. None of my reps know anything about these studies. MNKD doesn’t disseminate any of this information in their doctor education material.
Finally, as though this post wasn’t already long enough and to tie it back to the beginning - I don’t know why you feel pressured or responsible to find the root cause to fix the problem. Unless you’re employed by MNKD, this isn’t really even your job to try and you’ll probably just annoy the people whose job it is to do this. I have essentially identified the root cause in my post above. I’ll also add:
1/2. Poor education for clinicians and poor support for patients that have issues. At least half but probably closer to 75% of the patients I have started on Afrezza have made the decision to stop using it on their own. It varies from not understanding how to dose to being too expensive to not wanting to stay on top of their disease when there are more convenient tools. I had a few stop because of the cough. I don’t have time in my schedule to babysit my patients and make sure they’re doing what they should. It often takes 1-2 months for my established patients to even get in to see me because I’m booked out so far. There aren’t any community resources to help people when they have a problem with Afrezza so they just stop using it and I find out at my next appointment they don’t want to use it anymore. This has since been somewhat addressed as they now have Afrezza trainers but they still haven’t fixed the clinician side of things.
3. Insurance reimbursement is abysmal. Every script I have written has required a prior auth. When you spend so much time charting, the last thing you want to do is spend an extra 5 minutes at the end of your day to spin a wheel and hope for the 40-50% success rate of your PA. Half to more than half of your time you’re wasting your time- and you know it. If I didn’t care enough about my patients, I’d give up. To be honest, it’s a constant battle I have with myself- if I’m prioritizing my family or my patients first. It can become moral injury when you do it too much.
4. Lack of compelling information/data that Afrezza is superior to existing medications. Is it better or does it just blend in and is it another tool in the toolbox. So far, MNKD hasn’t effectively differentiated it from other insulins other than its inhaled. Again, non of my reps seemed to know much about the STAT trial significance, although this was listed in the physician print out. They pushed the inhaled benefits rather than the hypoglycemic and weight benefit. I am not privy to their educational background, how MNKD trains their reps, etc. as we’ve seen, there is a high rep turnover. Are they not hiring quality reps? Are they not training them properly? Do they not stay around long enough to get the training? It could be any or all.
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Post by lennymnkd on Nov 21, 2023 10:57:42 GMT -5
Dr Stevil ; I’ll make it quick ! No disrespect, what is your number one reason for being on this
Board .. you sound like a much to busy a guy to be here .
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Post by prcgorman2 on Nov 21, 2023 11:48:10 GMT -5
Dr Stevil ; I’ll make it quick ! No disrespect, what is your number one reason for being on this Board .. you sound like a much to busy a guy to be here . stevil doesn't post very often, so your assessment of how busy he appears to be is probably correct.
This thread is about Tyvaso DPI vs Yutrepia but as often happens we've wandered off topic, this time with an ad hominem distraction.
I like and appreciate posts from stevil, agedhippie, and sayhey24. I hope they continue and that the conversations can be more civil and respectful. Even cretin11 and I seem to be getting the hang of doing that. Hope springs eternal.
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Post by lennymnkd on Nov 21, 2023 12:11:54 GMT -5
For the record “HE” is listed as a postaholic and I couldn’t have been more polite .
And a response is out of line .
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Post by sayhey24 on Nov 21, 2023 12:26:01 GMT -5
Stevil - Wow! I don't know where to start but lets try here - "The other problem is information is nowadays too accessible". If thats a problem its only a problem for those trying to hide something. What happened to the info Josil use to have on the web about diabetes and viral infections? I haven't looked in a while but the last time I could not find it. It got scrubbed.
For years Aged said over and over the reason he/she would not try afrezza is his/her endos said it would cause serious lung damage. It was just the other week I heard they stopped saying that 5 years ago. Really?. Here is what he/she just said "The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage?" No he did not, he just gave up correcting you because you refuse to listen. I have just debunked this statement literally days ago and yet here you are repeating the same stuff yet again." - Are you kidding me! Yes I was born but it was not yesterday.
You ask - I don’t know why you feel pressured or responsible to find the root cause to fix the problem. The answer is that is what I do. Things to me have to make sense. I am the kind of guy when I drive down "Church Road" I ask where is the church. I was one of those guys who called bull on Covid coming from the under cooked bat burger when that was accepted truth. I am the kind of guy who asks why are we not giving people insulin when their bodies are no longer producing enough for their needs? Now, we can slap a CGM on them and watch their BG spike after meals so we give them metformin or better yet Ozempic so they don't eat as much - now that's brilliant. Lets mask the underlying problem. As you said too much information is a problem.
We can also see we had a spike in diabetes when everyone was watching the numbers during Covid. We can again ignore that and pretend it did not happen. We can also ignore that we got a bunch of research money which allowed some good work including the autopsy of some pancreas and some fine pictures of three deferent types of beta cell clumps as a result. We can ignore that too as that may be too much info.
Now for me this is a show stopper - "Lack of compelling information/data that Afrezza is superior to existing medications". Which medication - an RAA, an antiglycemic, which exactly? Afrezza crushes RAA's. We can measure those results with a CGM. There is not one antiglycemic which address the underlying problem - the body not making enough insulin for the body's need. Whether the body is "insulin resistant" or not we can slap a CGM on someone and see they have lost post prandial control. Again maybe we have to much information these days. We have Richard Bernstein as a living example of what happens when we do have great BG numbers. Is Bernstein an outlier at 89? I say no and Bernstein says no. We also have a ton of studies which have shown time and again, early insulin intervention has huge benefits. The goal regardless of the medication is blood glucose control. Can we do it with the Bernstein diet, yep. Can we do it with other insulins, yep. Does anything mimic first phase release like afrezza - nope. Afrezza makes the job much easier. Can you do it with metformin - nope nor the GLP1s if the people start eating again.
On this one - At least half but probably closer to 75% of the patients I have started on Afrezza have made the decision to stop using it on their own. Thats not surprising. If you have not pointed them to afrezza direct at $99 they are paying too much. Is $99 too much, maybe for some. What are they paying for Ozempic? 80%+ stop using in 2 years. Now the big question - if you start the early T2 on afrezza do they even need it after 1 year? Should afrezza be available for $35 on Medicare with out pre auths - yep but the powers to be are doing all they can to stop it.
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Post by prcgorman2 on Nov 21, 2023 13:05:04 GMT -5
For the record “HE” is listed as a postaholic and I couldn’t have been more polite . And a response is out of line . I wasn't trying to be disrespectful of your post. I acknowledged your assessment of stevil's apparent level of workload. Regardless of whether ProBoards describes stevil as a "postaholic", 656 posts in 8.4 years (an average of ~1 post per every 5 days) is not a huge volume .
I did not try to dissuade stevil from answering your question which I thought was interesting if based in genuine curiosity. For what it's worth, the little greek circle and arrow icon in the legend of stevil's avatar indicates stevil is a "HE".
I went on to observe the thread has again wandered off-topic because of a squabble and expressed my appreciation of stevil, agedhippie, and sayhey24's many contributions to the board and encouraged them to continue but without the squabbling if possible. |
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Post by porkini on Nov 21, 2023 15:09:09 GMT -5
A new thread "Virus/Bacteria as Cause of Diabetes?" has been created under "Diabetes and Other Medical Topics" section.
If the new thread needs a better or different title, please PM (personal message) me with your suggestion.
Thanks!
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Post by BD on Nov 21, 2023 20:05:55 GMT -5
April 20 is 420. Hippies smoke pot. Coincidence? I think not. You're a poet and didn't know it. |
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Post by uvula on Nov 21, 2023 22:26:12 GMT -5
April 20 is 420. Hippies smoke pot. Coincidence? I think not. You're a poet and didn't know it. I get paid extra when my posts rhyme. I'm glad someone noticed. It's about time. |
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Post by tingtongtung on Nov 21, 2023 22:51:54 GMT -5
You're a poet and didn't know it. I get paid extra when my posts rhyme. I'm glad someone noticed. It's about time. There is always big DRAMA with MNKD :-) Some are fighting about something semantic(?).. One guy is rhyming  .. One guy is creating new thread.. Some are debating about some software bug in an open source project. Fork it and fix it? And one guy (me!) is trying to be too smart, and pointing out these??  |
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Post by stevil on Nov 21, 2023 22:54:04 GMT -5
Dr Stevil ; I’ll make it quick ! No disrespect, what is your number one reason for being on this Board .. you sound like a much to busy a guy to be here . No disrespect taken- and you don't have to call me Dr.  My number 1 reason for being on the board is to educate people, I guess? I'm not really sure what the question is behind the question because I don't really think you're interested in the answer but are trying to take a jab? It's a shame to learn about all this stuff and not share it with others. I have no problem taking a back seat to aged (or anyone else)- as long as someone else makes sure accurate information is being shared. From time to time I chime when I can't sit idly on the sidelines anymore. Not sure if that answered your question, or the one behind the question. No, I'm not a paid short. Yes, I am an actual medical doctor. |
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Post by stevil on Nov 21, 2023 23:36:53 GMT -5
Stevil - Wow! I don't know where to start but lets try here - "The other problem is information is nowadays too accessible". If thats a problem its only a problem for those trying to hide something. What happened to the info Josil use to have on the web about diabetes and viral infections? I haven't looked in a while but the last time I could not find it. It got scrubbed. For years Aged said over and over the reason he/she would not try afrezza is his/her endos said it would cause serious lung damage. It was just the other week I heard they stopped saying that 5 years ago. Really?. Here is what he/she just said "The fact that he/she for years said afrezza would cause serious lung damage?" No he did not, he just gave up correcting you because you refuse to listen. I have just debunked this statement literally days ago and yet here you are repeating the same stuff yet again." - Are you kidding me! Yes I was born but it was not yesterday. You ask - I don’t know why you feel pressured or responsible to find the root cause to fix the problem. The answer is that is what I do. Things to me have to make sense. I am the kind of guy when I drive down "Church Road" I ask where is the church. I was one of those guys who called bull on Covid coming from the under cooked bat burger when that was accepted truth. I am the kind of guy who asks why are we not giving people insulin when their bodies are no longer producing enough for their needs? Now, we can slap a CGM on them and watch their BG spike after meals so we give them metformin or better yet Ozempic so they don't eat as much - now that's brilliant. Lets mask the underlying problem. As you said too much information is a problem. We can also see we had a spike in diabetes when everyone was watching the numbers during Covid. We can again ignore that and pretend it did not happen. We can also ignore that we got a bunch of research money which allowed some good work including the autopsy of some pancreas and some fine pictures of three deferent types of beta cell clumps as a result. We can ignore that too as that may be too much info. Now for me this is a show stopper - "Lack of compelling information/data that Afrezza is superior to existing medications". Which medication - an RAA, an antiglycemic, which exactly? Afrezza crushes RAA's. We can measure those results with a CGM. There is not one antiglycemic which address the underlying problem - the body not making enough insulin for the body's need. Whether the body is "insulin resistant" or not we can slap a CGM on someone and see they have lost post prandial control. Again maybe we have to much information these days. We have Richard Bernstein as a living example of what happens when we do have great BG numbers. Is Bernstein an outlier at 89? I say no and Bernstein says no. We also have a ton of studies which have shown time and again, early insulin intervention has huge benefits. The goal regardless of the medication is blood glucose control. Can we do it with the Bernstein diet, yep. Can we do it with other insulins, yep. Does anything mimic first phase release like afrezza - nope. Afrezza makes the job much easier. Can you do it with metformin - nope nor the GLP1s if the people start eating again. On this one - At least half but probably closer to 75% of the patients I have started on Afrezza have made the decision to stop using it on their own. Thats not surprising. If you have not pointed them to afrezza direct at $99 they are paying too much. Is $99 too much, maybe for some. What are they paying for Ozempic? 80%+ stop using in 2 years. Now the big question - if you start the early T2 on afrezza do they even need it after 1 year? Should afrezza be available for $35 on Medicare with out pre auths - yep but the powers to be are doing all they can to stop it. Answering one question leads to 2 more. I would like to address your questions, if I can. Josil probably got scrubbed because they realized it wasn't accurate information. I don't live in a conspiracy theory world. I do think there are dark forces and absolute power corrupts absolutely, however, I'm not connecting the conspiracy theory dots that you are. I really don't understand why you're so fixated on this. It has no relevance to Afrezza. I am far from an expert on immunology- that's it's own beast. Do we know viruses cause disease? Absolutely. I think a better explanation for any increase in diabetes during covid would be better explained by people getting some nice stimi checks, eating a ton of fast food, not working or leaving their houses, being sedentary, being stressed, actually going to their doctors when they're sick because they don't do preventive checkups and now that they need medical care, it reveals all sorts of new things, etc. The vast majority of people I knew said they gained weight during the pandemic. Unhealth leads to diabetes. I think that's a way more plausible cause than covid, when again, we're injecting the very protein into people's bodies that causes all the harmful effects of covid, some up to 5 times now and they're still not getting diabetes. To be honest with you, though, it's not really an argument that I care to entertain because it doesn't interest me and I don't see any relevance to Afrezza. Not a hill I'm willing to die on and I'm probably the wrong person to engage/entertain the argument because I'd be just as content if covid did cause diabetes. For a while, yes, aged said there was concern about lung issues. I don't see him saying that anymore and actually see the opposite? I don't see conflict here. Do you just need him to admit his endo was wrong to move on? This is another one that confuses me... If finding the root cause of something is what you do, great! My follow up question for you would be- what has this done for you? Where have you gotten? Are you any closer to getting to that root cause than you were, say 7 years ago? Even if you find that elusive root cause, what will you do with it when you find it? What influence or ability do you have to then effect any change with the newfound information? I don't want to rob you of your joy, but unless you're more than "just an engineer" (which is not a slight, by the way)... good luck, I guess? We have had this argument so many times on this board I'm not even sure if it's worth addressing. In a perfect world where I could have my patients do exactly what I wanted them to do and cost were no issue, I would probably choose Afrezza for the vast majority, if not all, of my patients. I didn't say that Afrezza wasn't better than all other diabetes treatments- I simply said that MNKD has failed to prove that it is. Everything you state after my quote has not come from evidence you've gotten from MNKD. That's a problem, or a "root cause", if you will, for the lack of Afrezza's success. What literature are you citing when you say using Afrezza early in their disease will halt the progression of diabetes? Sure, we have literature on early, intensive insulin treatment. It's been a while since I checked, but I have never seen Afrezza listed in those studies. If you're going to change a paradigm in a long-established disease and its treatment, theoretical arguments aren't going to influence opinions. Doctors want to see evidence and data. I don't know what to tell you other than it doesn't exist outside of what VDEX has published, which, unfortunately, doesn't fit criteria for a reputable source in the medical community. A white paper has never been authoritative but is an idea that will hopefully sprout into a new study that confirms its findings. This just hasn't been done yet. I really don't know what there is to argue about. Nothing matters until this happens... It's just the way it is and denying it or saying it shouldn't be that way is just going to leave you banging your head against the wall for all of us to keep seeing. For the showstopper- Yes, I have several patients on Afrezza. A couple I have started early, and they have increased their dose since they started on it. I have 100s of patients at this point on GLP-1s. I think I have maybe 2, that I can think of, that have stopped treatment due to side effects. I have had several quit because their diabetes went into remission and they didn't want to take it anymore if they weren't diabetic. But I'm not quite at the 2 year mark yet at my practice, so maybe I need to give them more time... And, yes, I live in a high cost of living area with very good insurance coverage. Surprisingly, only about 15% of my patients were on medicaid and about 65% were commercially insured the last time I ran a report. $99 is too much for many of them. People just don't care about Afrezza the same way you do. They want the path of least resistance. Not to shame my patients, but in general, we're not talking about weekend warriors. While there are some unfortunate type 2s that do everything right when it comes to diet and exercise, the majority of people that get the disease didn't get it from making healthy choices. Half of my patients quit Afrezza on their own. The biggest issue was it was too much work to babysit their CGM with Afrezza. They got excellent results- they admitted as much. They just got tired of having to dose so many times a day when they could get 0.4-0.5% higher A1c with less than half the effort. Cost wasn't the issue for most of them. I think I only have 1 person right now that is using the cash program. MNKD covers all commercially covered Afrezza at $35/month with their coupon card. BTW, Mounjaro has a $25 coupon card for 3 months, which is much cheaper than what Afrezza would cost. These things don't matter to me, though. What matters to me is finding a plan that works for my patient. If I make them use Afrezza and they refuse to do it, you end up with an uncontrolled diabetic. I try to meet them where they are and give them the tools they're willing to use. The biggest problem I see you having is that people with diabetes don't always care about getting "the best" treatment. They care about good enough with the least amount of effort. I have said this many times in the past and I've been argued with probably every one of those times. I don't really see the point in arguing it. It just is what it is. Sometimes you have to accept things for what they are. Hopefully I have addressed everything you wanted me to. |
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.. One guy is creating new thread.. Some are debating about some software bug in an open source project. Fork it and fix it?
