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Post by agedhippie on Jul 18, 2018 8:08:12 GMT -5
If they are affiliates and own 44%, the affiliates together still own the 44% of shares. Maybe that was just to keep it under wraps, the affilates part. This is how it works - A is owned by B who in turn is owned by C. If A buys shares then B has to file because they control A, and C has to file because they control B. The end result is that the same batch of shares is filed 3 times as the control interest rolls upwards. |
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Post by jmkopp on Jul 18, 2018 8:24:49 GMT -5
Thanks Hippie! I appreciate the simplification  |
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Post by cretin11 on Jul 18, 2018 10:13:48 GMT -5
The info is presented in a confusing way, but are we all in agreement that 14,576,376 is the total number of shares owned by the Deerfield/Flynn entities?
Are we also all in agreement that they (Deerfield/Flynn) appear to be long at this point, which is a positive indicator?
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Post by cretin11 on Jul 18, 2018 10:21:56 GMT -5
Mango - it seems to me Deerfield is accumulating and not shorting. Do I have this right? I am assuming they have all kinds of inside info on MNKD and know almost as much about whats going on as Mike does. And, I am OK with that if they are really accumulating. My understanding of Deerfield goes kind of like this The wheel is turning and you can't slow down
You can't let go and you can't hold on
You can't go back and you can't stand still
If the thunder don't get you then the lightning willMango you post some nonsensical stuff sometimes, but i do like your taste in music.  |
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Post by peppy on Jul 18, 2018 10:22:23 GMT -5
The info is presented in a confusing way, but are we all in agreement that 14,576,376 is the total number of shares owned by the Deerfield/Flynn entities? Are we also all in agreement that they (Deerfield/Flynn) appear to be long at this point, which is a positive indicator? If Deerfield/Flynn are holding long, it would seem positive. If deerfield/flynn are selling the shares, it would seem to be share price negative. |
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Post by awesomo on Jul 18, 2018 10:22:29 GMT -5
The info is presented in a confusing way, but are we all in agreement that 14,576,376 is the total number of shares owned by the Deerfield/Flynn entities? Are we also all in agreement that they (Deerfield/Flynn) appear to be long at this point, which is a positive indicator? 5,750,000 of that are through convertible notes. Also, that number is of July 12, for all we know, they could be systematically selling off those shares or shorting. They are not insiders, they are not required to disclose selling shares. All we know is that there has been a constant downwards pressure on this stock recently. Coincidence? Maybe, but Deerfield is no friend of MannKind, they have their own agenda. |
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Post by traderdennis on Jul 18, 2018 10:44:06 GMT -5
The info is presented in a confusing way, but are we all in agreement that 14,576,376 is the total number of shares owned by the Deerfield/Flynn entities? Are we also all in agreement that they (Deerfield/Flynn) appear to be long at this point, which is a positive indicator? No, they could control 14.6 Million shares. Options and warrants not exercised count towards control. Don't you think if this was true the price of the stock would have a short term rise on speculation of an activist investor. Since the news was released yesterday, the price is close to ten cents down, or 6%. |
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Post by jred on Jul 18, 2018 11:08:27 GMT -5
The info is presented in a confusing way, but are we all in agreement that 14,576,376 is the total number of shares owned by the Deerfield/Flynn entities? Are we also all in agreement that they (Deerfield/Flynn) appear to be long at this point, which is a positive indicator? No, they could control 14.6 Million shares. Options and warrants not exercised count towards control. Don't you think if this was true the price of the stock would have a short term rise on speculation of an activist investor. Since the news was released yesterday, the price is close to ten cents down, or 6%.
Promise I'm not stalking traderdennis, but it seems like you are throwing out BS again. Options and warrants count? MNKD keeps track of shares potentially due through exercises of warrants or options it has issued for purposes of fully diluted basis calculations. Where in the document are you seeing anything referencing warrants and options? Are you also saying third party and exchange issued options are included? Because even MNKD doesn't have to track those. |
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Post by traderdennis on Jul 18, 2018 11:24:17 GMT -5
No, they could control 14.6 Million shares. Options and warrants not exercised count towards control. Don't you think if this was true the price of the stock would have a short term rise on speculation of an activist investor. Since the news was released yesterday, the price is close to ten cents down, or 6%.
Promise I'm not stalking traderdennis , but it seems like you are throwing out BS again. Options and warrants count? MNKD keeps track of shares potentially due through exercises of warrants or options it has issued for purposes of fully diluted basis calculations. Where in the document are you seeing anything referencing warrants and options? Are you also saying third party and exchange issued options are included? Because even MNKD doesn't have to track those. Believe what you want. Price is down 6% since the announcement, the street does not believe Deerfield is accumulating. Keep dreaming. www.sec.gov/rules/final/2011/34-64628.pdfPage 14 “Derivative securities” are “any option, warrant, convertible security, stock appreciation right, or similar right with an exercise or conversion privilege at a price related to an equity security, or similar securities with a value derived from the value of an equity security, but shall not include […] rights with an exercise or conversion privilege at a price that is not fixed.”41 Equity securities of an issuer are “any equity security or derivative security relating to an issuer, whether or not issued by that issuer.”42 This framework recognizes that holding derivative securities is functionally equivalent to holding the underlying equity securities for Section 16 purposes because the value of the derivative securities is a function of or related to the value of the underlying equity security.43 |
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Post by peppy on Jul 18, 2018 11:29:13 GMT -5
Promise I'm not stalking traderdennis , but it seems like you are throwing out BS again. Options and warrants count? MNKD keeps track of shares potentially due through exercises of warrants or options it has issued for purposes of fully diluted basis calculations. Where in the document are you seeing anything referencing warrants and options? Are you also saying third party and exchange issued options are included? Because even MNKD doesn't have to track those. Believe what you want. Price is down 6% since the announcement, the street does not believe Deerfield is accumulating. Keep dreaming. www.sec.gov/rules/final/2011/34-64628.pdfPage 14 “Derivative securities” are “any option, warrant, convertible security, stock appreciation right, or similar right with an exercise or conversion privilege at a price related to an equity security, or similar securities with a value derived from the value of an equity security, but shall not include […] rights with an exercise or conversion privilege at a price that is not fixed.”41 Equity securities of an issuer are “any equity security or derivative security relating to an issuer, whether or not issued by that issuer.”42 This framework recognizes that holding derivative securities is functionally equivalent to holding the underlying equity securities for Section 16 purposes because the value of the derivative securities is a function of or related to the value of the underlying equity security.43 It is always interesting when people show up who have read and/or can quote, securities and exchange commission rules. Matt seems to know them. jred I am sooooo very glad you are here. |
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Post by jred on Jul 18, 2018 11:39:45 GMT -5
I'm familiar with the beneficial ownership rule, but appreciate the link.
However ... the footnote breaks out beneficial ownership - it out right states they own 8,826,376 shares of common stock. You do see that don't you in the first foot note under the Number of Shares Beneficially Owned?
"(1) Comprised of an aggregate of 8,826,376 shares of common stock and 5,750,000 shares of common stock underlying convertible notes"
There is no guessing or dreaming - it's right there. If options or warrants comprised the 8.8million it would be disclosed.
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Post by tinkusr8215 on Jul 18, 2018 11:39:53 GMT -5
People have short memory mnkd.proboards.com/thread/9097/deerfield-13fDeerfield is not in the business of investing. They provide debt and have ways to recover debt. This filing is for the shares they received for exchange. Once they re allocate the shares to shares that are shorted - they will no longer be a 5% owner. Isnt that what happened last time? |
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Post by peppy on Jul 18, 2018 11:56:25 GMT -5
People have short memory mnkd.proboards.com/thread/9097/deerfield-13fDeerfield is not in the business of investing. They provide debt and have ways to recover debt. This filing is for the shares they received for exchange. Once they re allocate the shares to shares that are shorted - they will no longer be a 5% owner. Isnt that what happened last time? I remember. Deerfield shares at $1.39 and share price subsequently falling to .66 Ah yes, I remember it well. |
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Post by jred on Jul 18, 2018 12:06:37 GMT -5
People have short memory mnkd.proboards.com/thread/9097/deerfield-13fDeerfield is not in the business of investing. They provide debt and have ways to recover debt. This filing is for the shares they received for exchange. Once they re allocate the shares to shares that are shorted - they will no longer be a 5% owner. Isnt that what happened last time? Agree with some of your point, but not all. I agree with your notion that Deerfield tends to be in the debt business and usually sells out shares it is issued. I stated this in a number of my recent posts.
And if you care to look, I go over my opinion why I disagree with the whole pre shorting "theory" put forward by some.
So if Deerfield had pre-shorted or had done so through warrants or options that would have been included in the beneficial ownership calculation (did I get that right traderdennis ?)
But through the footnotes, what we see is only long 8.8M shares of common stock and the potential 5.75M through the converts.
More over they only received 7,367,839 shares for the recent exchange, so they were holding an additional 1.46M long prior.
As you noted, Deerfield has historically sold out any shares it has received in prior exchanges. I like others was also surprised to see the 1.46M long held over. Since I don't have any additional insight on MNKD's operations, I would most likely expect them to follow their pattern and sell some shares.
What does this mean? Sorry, I've got no other insight. Pure speculation - Could it be positive indicator on what Deerfield sees coming for MNKD? - Sure. Could it just be DF looking to take some time to liquidate their long? -Sure.
Only indication I would suggest, is DF's actions are not of a lender predicting BK for the borrower.
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Post by babaoriley on Jul 18, 2018 12:49:03 GMT -5
People want information. Then they get it, then they don't know what it means. Information for the most part is confusing, because it's incomplete. However, it is fun, to an extent, to watch the skirmishes - like throwing a big chunk of raw meat in the midst of a pack of wild dogs.
Please do not draw the inference that I know what the information means - I've long given up on trying to interpret with less than all the salient facts.
Share price is what I watch. Script count next.
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