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Post by falconquest on Nov 20, 2015 17:49:56 GMT -5
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Post by esstan2001 on Nov 20, 2015 18:06:02 GMT -5
No one posted this today, [Edit: Falcon beat me to it while I was composing away] so I thought it should be put out here- it is not new, but it is another story that makes one question whether Sanofi can really do the right job. www.cnbc.com/2015/11/20/sanofi-whistleblower-lawsuit-kicks-into-higher-gear.html?__source=yahoo|finance|headline|headline|story&par=yahoo&doc=103179002Does this effectively tie their hands from aggressively marketing Afrezza, which we so sorely need? That leads me to my next thought, when we find whether the clamp study generated anything that can be used to enhance the label (as has been speculated on this board). Given this environment, I think SNY management may keep efforts close to the legal limits, but who knows. They apparently have played dirty in the past. |
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Post by dreamboatcruise on Nov 20, 2015 19:23:46 GMT -5
And another question... if they really were doing this worse than other pharmas, is it possible that PBM are punishing them with worse formulary placement for having run up their costs in the past.
I'd answer my own question by saying that seems unlikely given that Toujeo seems to have done better than I would have expected for good early placement.
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Post by blindhog1 on Nov 20, 2015 19:42:52 GMT -5
Well they sure as hell aren't putting out the PAY0LA for Afrezza. What's a matter with spreading a little juice in our direction.  |
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Post by trondisc on Nov 20, 2015 22:37:01 GMT -5
I don't trust Sanofi at all (see the additional link below). If Al Mann isn't too senile to think ahead, he should already be having secret talks with other 3rd party bio-pharma's RIGHT NOW negotiating MannKind's exit strategy from Sanofi the sandbagger immediately once the clock hits 2016. Sanofi's efforts after nearing a year with Afrezza have been nothing short of lackluster. Screw Brandicourt. "Sanofi promised it would make "diligent efforts" to meet those goals, according to the complaint. Instead, the trustee alleges, it deliberately took a "slow path" to bring Lemtrada to market." mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N13433H20151109 |
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Post by vestful on Nov 20, 2015 23:48:07 GMT -5
Not sure I trust Sanofi either. However, lets say mnkd gets a new partner. How much down time or delay does afrezza get due to new partner planning, sny right of refusal, logistics, licensing,legal ramifications, prep, marketing, etc., etc. before it gets script progression? Time is money and those obstacles worry me in that scenario. Legal alone is monumental. It's a good threat to sny but a setback and probably costly in both time and money.
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Post by vestful on Nov 20, 2015 23:53:53 GMT -5
Furthermore, bp's, Sanofi and mnkd understand this so either a BP would have to make an outstanding offer to keep mnkd afloat during the transition or a BP does it in spite of Sanofi to gouge their accounting book.
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Post by suebeeee1 on Nov 21, 2015 0:03:52 GMT -5
What if the corporate pharmaceutical environment is so corrupt that no drug goes anywhere without payoffs? This is very frightening to me. What we have is:
A. Sanofi who has already shown themselves as at least incompetent and at worst criminal in their dealings with MNKD. But then!
B. We have complaints of Sanofi slowing down marketing for Genzyme and not making diligent efforts (the same efforts promised to MNKD) And...
C. SNY is being accused of illegal payouts in order to get favorable drug placements
C. We have whistle blower complaints against Sanofi whose personal may have destroyed evidence...and finally...
D. Sanofis lawyers are not even licenced to practice in the state. Just who did sign the agreement with MNKD???
Even if none of this comes to fruition, MNKD may be going nowhere in the meantime while SNY fights through mulitiple battles. If ANY of it comes to fruition, SNY could get thrown out of the US for multiple repeat offenses of illegal payouts.
I wasn't against MNKD pulling out of the agreement with SNY until today. This is it.
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Post by gwb on Nov 21, 2015 0:53:01 GMT -5
What if the corporate pharmaceutical environment is so corrupt that no drug goes anywhere without payoffs? This is very frightening to me. What we have is: A. Sanofi who has already shown themselves as at least incompetent and at worst criminal in their dealings with MNKD. But then! B. We have complaints of Sanofi slowing down marketing for Genzyme and not making diligent efforts (the same efforts promised to MNKD) And... C. SNY is being accused of illegal payouts in order to get favorable drug placements C. We have whistle blower complaints against Sanofi whose personal may have destroyed evidence...and finally... D. Sanofis lawyers are not even licenced to practice in the state. Just who did sign the agreement with MNKD??? Even if none of this comes to fruition, MNKD may be going nowhere in the meantime while SNY fights through mulitiple battles. If ANY of it comes to fruition, SNY could get thrown out of the US for multiple repeat offenses of illegal payouts. I wasn't against MNKD pulling out of the agreement with SNY until today. This is it. Funny : All we want them to do , is advertise and put people behind Afrezza . Once people know about Afrezza it will sell it self . We don't need kickbacks and other activities to sell Afrezza , just simple marketing . |
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Post by peppy on Nov 21, 2015 1:03:55 GMT -5
If the physicians are getting kick backs, no wonder the attitude is; " injectable insulin is good enough for you."
Dollars for Docs
How Industry Dollars Reach Your Doctors
projects.propublica.org/docdollars/
What a crock.
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Post by liane on Nov 21, 2015 6:19:31 GMT -5
peppy, That site is a bit deceptive - the "kickbacks" include everything from speaking fees to meals (such as what we've been advocating here to market Afrezza to docs).
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Post by kball on Nov 21, 2015 7:36:00 GMT -5
What if the corporate pharmaceutical environment is so corrupt that no drug goes anywhere without payoffs? This is very frightening to me. What we have is: A. Sanofi who has already shown themselves as at least incompetent and at worst criminal in their dealings with MNKD. But then! B. We have complaints of Sanofi slowing down marketing for Genzyme and not making diligent efforts (the same efforts promised to MNKD) And...C. SNY is being accused of illegal payouts in order to get favorable drug placements C. We have whistle blower complaints against Sanofi whose personal may have destroyed evidence...and finally... D. Sanofis lawyers are not even licenced to practice in the state. Just who did sign the agreement with MNKD??? Even if none of this comes to fruition, MNKD may be going nowhere in the meantime while SNY fights through mulitiple battles. If ANY of it comes to fruition, SNY could get thrown out of the US for multiple repeat offenses of illegal payouts. I wasn't against MNKD pulling out of the agreement with SNY until today. This is it. Not quite the same. Mannkind agreement states 'reasonable efforts'. It would be better for mannkind should there be a future legal action, if it had said diligent which implies greater effort than reasonable edit: Watch Mannkind characterize efforts as half assed |
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Post by slugworth008 on Nov 21, 2015 10:42:17 GMT -5
gwbFunny : All we want them to do , is advertise and put people behind Afrezza . Once people know about Afrezza it will sell it self . We don't need kickbacks and other activities to sell Afrezza , just simple marketing . Read more: mnkd.proboards.com/thread/4245/over-sanofi#ixzz3s8oOsEDa---------------------- EXACTLY!!!! Marketing 101 for God's sake. It isn't rocket science. Google banner ads, some airtime and bang off to the races. IMO
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Post by mssciguy on Nov 21, 2015 11:15:43 GMT -5
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Post by ezrasfund on Nov 21, 2015 11:48:58 GMT -5
I believe the dynamics of the medical profession have more to do with Afrezza's very slow uptake than any marketing or insurance issues, although insurance does remain a critical issue.
"First, do no harm." That means using the proven approach and not the "new and improved treatment."
Again I point to Clostridium difficile and fecal transplants as a parallel case. There are approximately 500,000 cases and 15,000 deaths from this condition each year in the US. The treatment would be about as difficult to standardize as blood transfusions. A trial of the treatment was halted because it was found to be over 90% effective, and it would be unethical not to offer to all patients in the study. Many of those treated have been suffering for years, and they are cured in a matter of days.
Yet few doctors offer the treatment. It is hard to get insurance to cover it. Like Afrezza, it is considered primarily for those who have failed other treatments and never as a first line treatment. Today in the US alone 50 people will die and 1,500 will be diagnosed with C. diff. Most could be quickly cured with fecal transplants. The way these transplants work and why antibiotic treatments are really the cause more than the cure is now well understood. But "first, do no harm" results in the inertia of the standard of care.
I now better understand why my physician/investor friend considers "unmet needs" the holy grail of biotech. When there is no other treatment available the medical community is much more willing to try something new. And the only way to be sure a new treatment doesn't have long term side effects is to wait 10 or 20 years and see what happens. And in the case of Afrezza, remember, it is a logical impossibility to prove the negative case, that something does not cause cancer, for instance.
...and yes, there is the lung function test as well. It is always faster, easier and safer (for the doctor) to stick with the old rather than trying the new and improved.
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