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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 18:04:36 GMT -5
In order for Afrezza to be a success, the price needs to be competitive or discounted with rapid acting insulins. Given its non-inferiority, I don't see how payers, insurance companies and doctors can ignore Afrezza once the price is reduced. The question is, when will MannKind reduce the price? Mike Castagna feel free to chime in.
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Post by xoxoxoxo on Jun 19, 2016 21:43:31 GMT -5
In order for Afrezza to be a success, the price needs to be competitive or discounted with rapid acting insulins. Given its non-inferiority, I don't see how payers, insurance companies and doctors can ignore Afrezza once the price is reduced. The question is, when will MannKind reduce the price? Mike Castagna feel free to chime in. They should cut the price to hardly anything and then hire Martin Shkreli at the appropriate time to increase the price 10000% </sarcasm> |
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Post by anderson on Jun 19, 2016 23:10:15 GMT -5
If only Sanofi would have listened to Al Mann from September 15th, 2014.(note this is after they negotiated the 35/65 split so Al though they could still make a profit) www.diabetesincontrol.com/an-exclusive-interview-with-al-mann-founder-and-ceo-mannkind-corp/SF: How will the product be priced compared to injected insulin? Will it be similar to Humalog? AM: I cannot offer a precise answer because we have just executed our partnership agreements with Sanofi, and Sanofi is responsible for establishing the pricing. Our intention has been to sell it at very close to the same price as the equivalent dose of pen delivered rapid acting analogs, and we believe Sanofi is in agreement. |
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Post by anderson on Jun 19, 2016 23:15:28 GMT -5
I may be wrong but I also think Sanofi priced Afrezza so they would not loose any profit from conversion from Apidra to Afrezza. I bet 65% profit from Afrezza = 100% profit from Apidra, hence no lose in revenue for Sanofi.
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Post by kdaddyfresh2000 on Jun 19, 2016 23:46:25 GMT -5
In order for Afrezza to be a success, the price needs to be competitive or discounted with rapid acting insulins. Given its non-inferiority, I don't see how payers, insurance companies and doctors can ignore Afrezza once the price is reduced. The question is, when will MannKind reduce the price? Mike Castagna feel free to chime in. Does anyone know the no-kidding cost of Novolog and Humalog? I mean before this or that copy, discount, subsidy blah blah blah...  ? |
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Post by kdaddyfresh2000 on Jun 19, 2016 23:49:24 GMT -5
In order for Afrezza to be a success, the price needs to be competitive or discounted with rapid acting insulins. Given its non-inferiority, I don't see how payers, insurance companies and doctors can ignore Afrezza once the price is reduced. The question is, when will MannKind reduce the price? Mike Castagna feel free to chime in. Does anyone know the no-kidding cost of Novolog and Humalog? I mean before this or that copy, discount, subsidy blah blah blah... ? Also, aren't we out of the penalty box and allowed to go to Tier 2 if the price is right since >1 year has passed? |
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Post by peppy on Jun 20, 2016 5:08:56 GMT -5
In order for Afrezza to be a success, the price needs to be competitive or discounted with rapid acting insulins. Given its non-inferiority, I don't see how payers, insurance companies and doctors can ignore Afrezza once the price is reduced. The question is, when will MannKind reduce the price? Mike Castagna feel free to chime in. Does anyone know the no-kidding cost of Novolog and Humalog? I mean before this or that copy, discount, subsidy blah blah blah... ? Spiro once told us the MNKD cost to manufacture a box of 4unit/30 day afrezza was $20.00. You can bet the cost to manufacture a vial of these fast acting insulin's is less.
Humalog, The cost to the customer is difficult to determine. cost for 1 vial (100 units per ml/10 ml vial humalog?) www.google.com/shopping/product/13692290133326341189?site=&q=cost+of+humalog&oq=cost+of+hum&prds=hsec:online&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHjKqqrbbNAhUUSVIKHRfDBGIQviQItQE
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Post by matt on Jun 20, 2016 6:57:38 GMT -5
You cannot look at retail prices, or even co-pays, and figure out what a drug really costs. There is a complex web of rebates in the industry and the explanation of how those work used to give me a raging headache (and I am a numbers guys!). In essence what happens is that pharma companies buy loyalty by promising a certain rebate if a health plan or pharmacy benefit manager converts a certain percentage of their patients to that preferred brand. Normally the rebate is only paid on the back end after the pharma company can verify from IMS data whether the plan hit the target conversion.
So the full retail pharmacy price for a given drug might be $50, the price though a PBM might be $30 with the patient paying a $20 of that as a co-pay, but the real price to the health plan might be $0 because the rebate might cover the part the co-pay doesn't cover. In some cases the co-pay is more than the full retail price of some older drugs, but nobody ever tells the patient that they just spent $20 on a co-pay for a $10 prescription. In those cases the plan can actually make money. With that as a backdrop, what is your definition of "real price" to the customer?
Rule of thumb for proprietary pharmaceuticals is that the gross profit margin needs to be 75-80% in order to cover the cost of sales and marketing, distribution, research and other costs to still leave a reasonable pretax profit. That translates into a 4X or 5X markup on manufacturing cost, so if Afrezza really costs $20 to produce as peppy stated, that would imply a selling price of $80 to $100. Anything less and the company will perpetually underperform financially when compared with other pharma companies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 7:01:00 GMT -5
If only Sanofi would have listened to Al Mann from September 15th, 2014.(note this is after they negotiated the 35/65 split so Al though they could still make a profit) www.diabetesincontrol.com/an-exclusive-interview-with-al-mann-founder-and-ceo-mannkind-corp/SF: How will the product be priced compared to injected insulin? Will it be similar to Humalog? AM: I cannot offer a precise answer because we have just executed our partnership agreements with Sanofi, and Sanofi is responsible for establishing the pricing. Our intention has been to sell it at very close to the same price as the equivalent dose of pen delivered rapid acting analogs, and we believe Sanofi is in agreement. If Al Mann believed they could be profitable at 35%, it seems likely MannKind can reduce the price to RAAs and be profitable while absorbing cost of goods sold. I would guess new pricing is established in July in order to give sales representatives a greater probability of success??? |
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Post by peppy on Jun 20, 2016 7:12:34 GMT -5
that has been the stated plan from the drop dead announcement date in January. Parapharasing matt, MNKD knew they had a problem. Pricing would be addressed. consulting work being done.
The deal as we know was 35/65.
the cost of 30 day 4 u afrezza 20 us dollars a day with lines running. the price is cost sensitive to lines running.
we need scripts to get it going.
we know we have a fine product.
still thinking with any luck the diabetic community will jump on board. It would be nice if the community increased demand.
if MNKD could get the pediatric trial with CGM done, it may help the whole shebang.
The thing we have here is a fine product. As shown on continuous glucose monitors. we have been able to figure out the why, the how. we know users love it, at least the users we hear from.
It seems to me there is plenty of investment money around.
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Post by peppy on Jun 20, 2016 7:26:56 GMT -5
You cannot look at retail prices, or even co-pays, and figure out what a drug really costs. There is a complex web of rebates in the industry and the explanation of how those work used to give me a raging headache (and I am a numbers guys!). In essence what happens is that pharma companies buy loyalty by promising a certain rebate if a health plan or pharmacy benefit manager converts a certain percentage of their patients to that preferred brand. Normally the rebate is only paid on the back end after the pharma company can verify from IMS data whether the plan hit the target conversion. So the full retail pharmacy price for a given drug might be $50, the price though a PBM might be $30 with the patient paying a $20 of that as a co-pay, but the real price to the health plan might be $0 because the rebate might cover the part the co-pay doesn't cover. In some cases the co-pay is more than the full retail price of some older drugs, but nobody ever tells the patient that they just spent $20 on a co-pay for a $10 prescription. In those cases the plan can actually make money. With that as a backdrop, what is your definition of "real price" to the customer? Rule of thumb for proprietary pharmaceuticals is that the gross profit margin needs to be 75-80% in order to cover the cost of sales and marketing, distribution, research and other costs to still leave a reasonable pretax profit. That translates into a 4X or 5X markup on manufacturing cost, so if Afrezza really costs $20 to produce as peppy stated, that would imply a selling price of $80 to $100. Anything less and the company will perpetually underperform financially when compared with other pharma companies. running with this fine information, the new box configurations are, 4/ 8 unit 30 day , 8/ 12 unit 30 day, so the cost increased with the units of insulin. A vial of apidra the cheapest I have seen quoted with a discount card $125 dollars a 30 day vial. $125 dollars a month, half of what sanofi was asking, that is the number to hit iMHO for insurance with the limited information I have. What do you think?
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Post by agedhippie on Jun 20, 2016 7:49:18 GMT -5
You cannot look at retail prices, or even co-pays, and figure out what a drug really costs. There is a complex web of rebates in the industry and the explanation of how those work used to give me a raging headache (and I am a numbers guys!). In essence what happens is that pharma companies buy loyalty by promising a certain rebate if a health plan or pharmacy benefit manager converts a certain percentage of their patients to that preferred brand. Normally the rebate is only paid on the back end after the pharma company can verify from IMS data whether the plan hit the target conversion. So the full retail pharmacy price for a given drug might be $50, the price though a PBM might be $30 with the patient paying a $20 of that as a co-pay, but the real price to the health plan might be $0 because the rebate might cover the part the co-pay doesn't cover. In some cases the co-pay is more than the full retail price of some older drugs, but nobody ever tells the patient that they just spent $20 on a co-pay for a $10 prescription. In those cases the plan can actually make money. With that as a backdrop, what is your definition of "real price" to the customer? Rule of thumb for proprietary pharmaceuticals is that the gross profit margin needs to be 75-80% in order to cover the cost of sales and marketing, distribution, research and other costs to still leave a reasonable pretax profit. That translates into a 4X or 5X markup on manufacturing cost, so if Afrezza really costs $20 to produce as peppy stated, that would imply a selling price of $80 to $100. Anything less and the company will perpetually underperform financially when compared with other pharma companies. running with this fine information, the new box configurations are, 4/ 8 unit 30 day , 8/ 12 unit 30 day, so the cost increased with the units of insulin. A vial of apidra the cheapest I have seen quoted with a discount card $125 dollars a 30 day vial. $125 dollars a month, half of what sanofi was asking, that is the number to hit iMHO for insurance with the limited information I have. What do you think?
Apidra sells for £16.00 (roughly $24) for a 10mL vial in the UK ( Apidra price source). That's price to the NHS but it shows what can be done. |
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Post by peppy on Jun 20, 2016 8:04:30 GMT -5
running with this fine information, the new box configurations are, 4/ 8 unit 30 day , 8/ 12 unit 30 day, so the cost increased with the units of insulin. A vial of apidra the cheapest I have seen quoted with a discount card $125 dollars a 30 day vial. $125 dollars a month, half of what sanofi was asking, that is the number to hit iMHO for insurance with the limited information I have. What do you think?
Apidra sells for £16.00 (roughly $24) for a 10mL vial in the UK ( Apidra price source). That's price to the NHS but it shows what can be done. 24 dollars, 16 euros, the co pay in the UK aged? Everyone covered price?
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Post by victoria on Jun 20, 2016 8:13:19 GMT -5
Hi Peppy. The NHS covers everyone, no 'tiers' or whatever. There are no 'co-pays' as such in the NHS but there is a flat fee of £8.40 paid to the pharmacist by the patient per NHS prescription, per medicine, for most medicines (which presumably covers their costs as private companies on the high street). Note that a 'prescription' is unrelated to the number of actual units of the medicine included, so if you have a NHS doctor who writes you (eg) a 4 month long prescription covering multiple repeats of a drug then that is all included in the £8.40. People who are on state benefits or who are old pay no prescription charge. Some drugs have no fee, such as contraceptive pills. The charge never exceeds £8.40 for medicines, irrespective of their cost to the NHS, as far as I know. If a drug is available cheaper than £8.40 over the counter then of course people may decide not to use the NHS prescription (eg if a doctor prescribed aspirin, one would just buy it rather than use the prescription unless one was entitled to free prescriptions). You can also buy reduced price prescriptions by paying a modest annual or three-month cost in advance, if you are a bulk user of multiple drugs, so as to keep the cost down to £2 per week for unlimited prescriptions. One of the factors in the 'Brexit' vote on Thursday this week is that (eg) any EU citizen can come to the UK and get prescriptions at that cost if they are unwell and get a prescription from an NHS doctor. www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcosts/Pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspxPS, £16 (=just under $24 USD) is more like 20.65 Euros at the moment if anyone is interested in the Euro equivalent. |
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Post by agedhippie on Jun 20, 2016 9:53:07 GMT -5
Hi Peppy. The NHS covers everyone, no 'tiers' or whatever. There are no 'co-pays' as such in the NHS but there is a flat fee of £8.40 paid to the pharmacist by the patient per NHS prescription, per medicine, for most medicines (which presumably covers their costs as private companies on the high street). Note that a 'prescription' is unrelated to the number of actual units of the medicine included, so if you have a NHS doctor who writes you (eg) a 4 month long prescription covering multiple repeats of a drug then that is all included in the £8.40. People who are on state benefits or who are old pay no prescription charge. Diabetics on drugs or insulin are one of the classes where they will give you a medical exemption certificate. These are worth having as they are permanent and exempt you from all NHS charges and not just diabetes related ones. No more prescription charges (co-pays) ever.  |
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