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Post by agedhippie on Aug 13, 2020 20:57:57 GMT -5
In terms of cost to Mannkind we are talking about $250 of Afrezza which will generate $7,000 of revenue (based on my usage, as Type 2 they are probably higher) over the next year, and every following year. That is why Novo Nordisk, Lilly, and Sanofi shower clinics with free samples, they understand business and that ROI is golden. For a one time $250 payment Mannkind can buy a revenue stream worth $7,000 per year for decades. (Numbers based off Mannkind's 10Q, get greater production efficiency and make more money) Great, only $250. Again why can't the PWD buy it themselves for $99 a box or if VDex wants to give it away then they should buy it. People are forking over nearly $400 to Virta for a keto diet. VDex should have a business model which is going to make money. If it is only $250 on a $7000 sale then it should be the cost of business to VDex. The VDex business model should not be based on making money by relying on free samples from Mannkind. ... Go back and reread my post. Mannkind make that recurrent $7,000 per year in exchange for $250, not VDex. It is not the cost of doing business for VDex, it is the cost of doing business for Mannkind, and it is also hugely less than they are paying for a patient at the moment. As I said, Mannkind will never get a better ROI and this is why all the other insulin manufacters do this, they want that ROI. You would think a Wharton MBA graduate would understand ROI...
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Post by cretin11 on Aug 13, 2020 21:18:17 GMT -5
Exactly aged! It just ain’t that hard to understand.
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Post by mytakeonit on Aug 14, 2020 6:09:29 GMT -5
I already bought in with MORE than $250 ... when do I get the $7,000 But, that's mytakeonit
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Post by prcgorman2 on Aug 14, 2020 6:15:59 GMT -5
Great, only $250. Again why can't the PWD buy it themselves for $99 a box or if VDex wants to give it away then they should buy it. People are forking over nearly $400 to Virta for a keto diet. VDex should have a business model which is going to make money. If it is only $250 on a $7000 sale then it should be the cost of business to VDex. The VDex business model should not be based on making money by relying on free samples from Mannkind. ... Go back and reread my post. Mannkind make that recurrent $7,000 per year in exchange for $250, not VDex. It is not the cost of doing business for VDex, it is the cost of doing business for Mannkind, and it is also hugely less than they are paying for a patient at the moment. As I said, Mannkind will never get a better ROI and this is why all the other insulin manufacters do this, they want that ROI. You would think a Wharton MBA graduate would understand ROI... It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Create a “success-based” program with a mix of free and purchased samples. The greater the success, the less the purchased samples cost, and certainly with the high end of the success scale eliminating the purchase.
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Post by oldfishtowner on Aug 14, 2020 7:20:56 GMT -5
Sports, I like where you’re going with this. Buy an Afrezza script, get 100 MNKD shares for free! ☺️ No dilution!!!!!
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Post by agedhippie on Aug 14, 2020 8:58:13 GMT -5
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Create a “success-based” program with a mix of free and purchased samples. The greater the success, the less the purchased samples cost, and certainly with the high end of the success scale eliminating the purchase. The simple truth here is that if you want the patients to pay a couple of hundred dollars a month with no proof that it will work for them then don't expect many takers. It's why everyone else gives away as many free samples as a clinic wants - it's an investment. You can turn this around. If I came up to you and said I would sell you the right to $3,290 (the gross profit on $7,000 revenue) per year for the next 5 years (picking an arbitrary duration) how much would you pay for that? The world I work in would probably go up to $3,000 in a heartbeat because it's covered in the first year. Now work out how many sample packs you can supply for that price (answer is 12). Can VDex do better than 1 patient in 12? If so this is worth doing. This is why Novo Nordisk and Lilly give away free samples so freely, they know they will get enough patients as a result to make it worthwhile. It's the drug dealer principle - the first one is free, get them hooked and you have them for life. It's all about the ROI.
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Post by prcgorman2 on Aug 14, 2020 10:25:57 GMT -5
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Create a “success-based” program with a mix of free and purchased samples. The greater the success, the less the purchased samples cost, and certainly with the high end of the success scale eliminating the purchase. The simple truth here is that if you want the patients to pay a couple of hundred dollars a month with no proof that it will work for them then don't expect many takers. It's why everyone else gives away as many free samples as a clinic wants - it's an investment. You can turn this around. If I came up to you and said I would sell you the right to $3,290 (the gross profit on $7,000 revenue) per year for the next 5 years (picking an arbitrary duration) how much would you pay for that? The world I work in would probably go up to $3,000 in a heartbeat because it's covered in the first year. Now work out how many sample packs you can supply for that price (answer is 12). Can VDex do better than 1 patient in 12? If so this is worth doing. This is why Novo Nordisk and Lilly give away free samples so freely, they know they will get enough patients as a result to make it worthwhile. It's the drug dealer principle - the first one is free, get them hooked and you have them for life. It's all about the ROI. My ex is a nurse. I’m familiar with free drug samples. Not arguing, but even there “free” is based on success. I agree it should be a liberal program, but I also trust the management to use good judgement.
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Post by agedhippie on Aug 14, 2020 11:44:04 GMT -5
My ex is a nurse. I’m familiar with free drug samples. Not arguing, but even there “free” is based on success. I agree it should be a liberal program, but I also trust the management to use good judgement. Free should definitely be based on success - no argument there. I think we part company on trusting the management's good judgement though
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Post by awesomo on Aug 14, 2020 11:54:06 GMT -5
The simple truth here is that if you want the patients to pay a couple of hundred dollars a month with no proof that it will work for them then don't expect many takers. It's why everyone else gives away as many free samples as a clinic wants - it's an investment. You can turn this around. If I came up to you and said I would sell you the right to $3,290 (the gross profit on $7,000 revenue) per year for the next 5 years (picking an arbitrary duration) how much would you pay for that? The world I work in would probably go up to $3,000 in a heartbeat because it's covered in the first year. Now work out how many sample packs you can supply for that price (answer is 12). Can VDex do better than 1 patient in 12? If so this is worth doing. This is why Novo Nordisk and Lilly give away free samples so freely, they know they will get enough patients as a result to make it worthwhile. It's the drug dealer principle - the first one is free, get them hooked and you have them for life. It's all about the ROI. My ex is a nurse. I’m familiar with free drug samples. Not arguing, but even there “free” is based on success. I agree it should be a liberal program, but I also trust the management to use good judgement. I agree with you that "free" should be based on success. However, Castagna has seemingly rebuffed VDEX at every turn until they became hostile. There has never been any sort of "providing samples based on success" from MannKind's end. IMO, Castagna at some point believed VDEX is/was a threat to his business plan and ego. Now for him to go back to them at this point and work with them would be admitting defeat so he's not going to do it.
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Post by oldfishtowner on Aug 14, 2020 12:51:39 GMT -5
My ex is a nurse. I’m familiar with free drug samples. Not arguing, but even there “free” is based on success. I agree it should be a liberal program, but I also trust the management to use good judgement. Free should definitely be based on success - no argument there. I think we part company on trusting the management's good judgement though Trusting MNKD or VDex management. We see MNKD's script numbers every week. Maybe I missed it, but do we know how many of the weekly scripts VDex generates? What is the VDex Afrezza script growth rate? How many samples does it take per patient to turn samples into an actual script? How many patients never get that far? What is the retention rate for the patients VDex started on Afrezza? Are any of these data available?
It is difficult to believe that if Vdex is responsible for a significant portion of weekly Afrezza scripts that Castagna would be reluctant to provide Vdex with as many samples as it needs. On the other hand, MNKD is faced with the monthly net revenue requirement under the MidCap facitlity. So if more samples do not produce proportionally more scripts, but only subsidize extra visits for VDex patients, it does not make sense for MNKD to provide more scripts to VDex. MNKD's goal should be to turn samples into scripts a soon as possible, within reason, of course. I do not believe it has anything to do with the cost of samples, but that too many samples for each patient results in fewer scripts at a time when script growth is a serious concern for MNKD. I do not know what the case may be, but at least as far as I am aware, VDex is not very transparent. Even when Bill was intent on taking over the BOD, I did not see any real data forthcoming from him.
I am not against VDex. But as a MNKD stockholder, I am interested in what's best for MNKD, not VDex. So if someone can provide or point me to the answers to my questions above, I would be happy to reconsider my view of this debate.
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Post by Actual Investor on Aug 14, 2020 13:27:33 GMT -5
We need a look behind the VEDX curtain. I am not wearing financial "Ruby Slippers" that magically tell me what they are doing. It's like listening to certain politicians tell us how great they are doing with no visual evidence of the results. Has anybody asked our CFO what kind of revenue VDEX produces? That's the number I need before jumping on that "Yellow Brick Road".
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Post by sportsrancho on Aug 14, 2020 16:03:02 GMT -5
Well you guys don’t know what Vdex is doing because you blew it ..there were too many complaints when I posted stuff on the this board so now it gets posted on Stock Twits and Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
It does take a couple months of samples to get their A1 C down and get their insurance on board if they got a rejection.
We are one of Mannkind’s largest providers. We just want as many samples as the other growing providers are receiving. Just to be treated fairly.
There’s no doubt Mike was mad at Bill because he blocked us on Twitter. But I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt since at this point we have proved ourselves:-) I think we can be beneficial to each other and nobody would have to admit they were wrong about anything.
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Post by mymann on Aug 14, 2020 17:30:46 GMT -5
Mike wants to be the "one" as in Matrix to save Afrezza. As Al have said in past, take care of the patients and rest is gravy. If Vdex is able to help PWD to control their diabetes with the best medication he should help any organizations to achieve reaching patients to have a quality of life they deserve. Thanks Sports for your dedicated to help people with diabetes.
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Post by georgethenight2 on Aug 16, 2020 7:53:39 GMT -5
Well you guys don’t know what Vdex is doing because you blew it ..there were too many complaints when I posted stuff on the this board so now it gets posted on Stock Twits and Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. It does take a couple months of samples to get their A1 C down and get their insurance on board if they got a rejection. We are one of Mannkind’s largest providers. We just want as many samples as the other growing providers are receiving. Just to be treated fairly. There’s no doubt Mike was mad at Bill because he blocked us on Twitter. But I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt since at this point we have proved ourselves:-) I think we can be beneficial to each other and nobody would have to admit they were wrong about anything. If you guys are doing more than MC's in house sales staff, why not provide details? An under-utlized sales staff is unacceptable.
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Post by cjm18 on Aug 16, 2020 10:08:47 GMT -5
So vdex is mad Bc mannkind is not giving samples to them but they are giving samples to other providers? If true then why?
It has to be that the Vdex model isn’t retaining the patient from the free sample? Or vdex is taking a cut Of the money that would normally go to mannkind?? Something doesn’t add up.
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