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Post by sayhey24 on Feb 26, 2023 10:20:45 GMT -5
Dolly - the AID is dosing all the time based on the algorithm Lane and others have developed. The problem is absorption. Lane can never develop an algorithm which will beat afrezza. It takes too damn long for the RAA to get in the blood and then break down to a monomer. The simple fact is it will never be anywhere as good as afrezza at mealtime. The last big attempt was Fiasp and it failed. The question is how good is once daily Tresiba after the 2hr period when compared to the AID. We will find out in June but I bet Tresiba plus afrezza wins.
The thing is its during meals when BG goes whacky. If the PWD never ate and just sat still all day their BG would be pretty flat. That is not reality. If so Tresiba would easily win over the Aid. The advantage of the AID over Tresiba is at mealtime but we see afrezza kicks butt here over the AID.
Aged's argument is with afrezza you have to check you BG 60minutes after eating and maybe 90minutes and even 2 hrs. What PWD on a CGM is not going to check? I would say very few. Come on - how hard is it to look at your phone? I think what we will see in June is the CGM with afrezza has made the AID obsolete by using Tresiba once daily for the basal. If you need another correction dose of afrezza you take a puff. Aged is saying that is too hard.
In this part of the study they did not second dose afrezza. They let the AID handle the BG after 2 hrs when afrezza is gone. If they second dosed afrezza with Tresiba there is little doubt it will win. We will see but I am guessing the Tresiba data is so good they wanted to keep it for the BIG show in June at ADA2023.
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Post by sayhey24 on Feb 26, 2023 10:22:09 GMT -5
Is that monitoring the swipe of a phone ? No, that's reading the result. Monitoring is making the decision to pick up the phone and check. Pick up the phone and check it? What is it attached to a wall? Who is not checking messages atleast every hour these days? |
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Post by agedhippie on Feb 26, 2023 10:53:00 GMT -5
... Does an AID dose only at the peak level to begin the correction or does it dose smaller incremental amounts as it catches the excursion gaining traction during that messy day? Also, is there a need to still use a CGM if you utilize an AID?... Does it dose and track your BG? Keeping track of the BG levels seems to be the central piece to managing the disease. Moving on...I would believe when managing the disease, during those "messy moments" you illustrated, why Afrezza should also be included in that management tool kit and here's why. The old adage, "One size fits all does" cannot apply to this disease, period ... This is why it's not as simple as, "Wear this it will save your life" or "Inhale at mealtime"...there's just too many variables, options, lifestyles that require each set of circumstances to define what suits and fits the individual best, given what I've stated. ... It's just me letting it out that I cannot subscribe to the notion that Afrezza can be defeated at every turn, without feeling the same way about other therapies. There are too many unique moving parts with managing diabetes ... IMHO, experienced PWD will choose for themselves what works best for them and they will not be pigeon holed into one therapy or another by their physicians anymore. That was a great post and put a lot of my points better than I have! To the first section; the CGM is part of the AID along with the physical pump and whatever computer (usually a phone) is running the algorithm. The computer checks BG readings every five minutes or so, looks up how much insulin it has given you, and makes sure you are still within the margin of error. If you have strayed outside that for whatever reason, you drank a coffee or your body just decided to mess with you, then it will do a partial correction - rinse repeat. You set a target for where you want your BG to land when you first get the AID, usually around 100 or 120 and it's always aiming for that. The AID works by increments rather than large jump - the tradition analogy is it's like steering a car with large swings being generally a bad idea. The second section is more philosophical. People seem to think I am anti-Afrezza and I am not. I absolutely want Afrezza to continue to be available, but there is an idea that it's a magic bullet. For some people that may well be the case, diabetes is sufficiently diverse, but more generally it seems to be used as part of the toolkit. This is one of the reasons I am so interested in the Single Afrezza dose plus AID approach. I can use Afrezza to kneecap that initial spike, but I don't need to be accurate because the AID will clean up. If I took to much then the AID will reduce my basal to give me room, if I took to little I am dealling with a smaller spike so it's easier on the algorithm. My theory is that by using Afrezza with an AID system I can effectively use the AID as a closed loop system and need not tell it about events at all. Anyway - that's just a theory right now:) I only know a few Type 2 diabetics so this is pretty much about Type 1; The group I know are very engaged in their treatment because it's literally your life, and not amputations or CKD or eyesight or other complications, but dead in less than a day if you get it wrong. That makes it hard to always do what the endo asks, and makes you check everything. There is the old adage about making breakfast - the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. The two great lies Type 1 diabetics are always told are: there will be a cure in the next 5 years, and this treatment is the magic bullet. Any time someone says that their credibility automatically drops. There have been to many disappointments in the past. |
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Post by agedhippie on Feb 26, 2023 11:02:26 GMT -5
... The thing is its during meals when BG goes whacky. If the PWD never ate and just sat still all day their BG would be pretty flat. That is not reality. If so Tresiba would easily win over the Aid. The advantage of the AID over Tresiba is at mealtime but we see afrezza kicks butt here over the AID. Aged's argument is with afrezza you have to check you BG 60minutes after eating and maybe 90minutes and even 2 hrs. What PWD on a CGM is not going to check? I would say very few. Come on - how hard is it to look at your phone? ... In this part of the study they did not second dose afrezza. They let the AID handle the BG after 2 hrs when afrezza is gone. If they second dosed afrezza with Tresiba there is little doubt it will win. As a diabetic I can tell you that while sitting in a room doing nothing you body is quite capable of messing with your BG. This is the approach that endos take and the over-simplification drives the diabetics I know wild. You end up with the endo saying you must have done something because they cannot comprehend in a tidy universe how it could happen. What diabetic with a CGM isn't going to check? Almost all the ones I know. You check when something feels wrong, or on impulse, you don't check according to a timetable - that's letting diabetes run your life. I can delegate all that checking to the AID, and hey it can do the correction as well! Now I can get on with my life and not think about diabetes. That second dose model is the one that interests me. I have zero interest in the Afrezza plus Tresiba because it's increasing my diabetes workload. |
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Post by lennymnkd on Feb 26, 2023 14:16:37 GMT -5
Abbott lab 174 billion market cap
Dexcom 43 billion market cap
Sens 468 million market cap …. These guys are doing it all wrong !
Tell me , what are they missing … TRESBIA / Afrezza/ cgm’s are a big
Part of my hopes going forward.. I and not a diabetic.
( investment wise )
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Post by hellodolly on Feb 26, 2023 14:23:41 GMT -5
... Does an AID dose only at the peak level to begin the correction or does it dose smaller incremental amounts as it catches the excursion gaining traction during that messy day? Also, is there a need to still use a CGM if you utilize an AID?... Does it dose and track your BG? Keeping track of the BG levels seems to be the central piece to managing the disease. Moving on...I would believe when managing the disease, during those "messy moments" you illustrated, why Afrezza should also be included in that management tool kit and here's why. The old adage, "One size fits all does" cannot apply to this disease, period ... This is why it's not as simple as, "Wear this it will save your life" or "Inhale at mealtime"...there's just too many variables, options, lifestyles that require each set of circumstances to define what suits and fits the individual best, given what I've stated. ... It's just me letting it out that I cannot subscribe to the notion that Afrezza can be defeated at every turn, without feeling the same way about other therapies. There are too many unique moving parts with managing diabetes ... IMHO, experienced PWD will choose for themselves what works best for them and they will not be pigeon holed into one therapy or another by their physicians anymore. That was a great post and put a lot of my points better than I have! To the first section; the CGM is part of the AID along with the physical pump and whatever computer (usually a phone) is running the algorithm. The computer checks BG readings every five minutes or so, looks up how much insulin it has given you, and makes sure you are still within the margin of error. If you have strayed outside that for whatever reason, you drank a coffee or your body just decided to mess with you, then it will do a partial correction - rinse repeat. You set a target for where you want your BG to land when you first get the AID, usually around 100 or 120 and it's always aiming for that. The AID works by increments rather than large jump - the tradition analogy is it's like steering a car with large swings being generally a bad idea. The second section is more philosophical. People seem to think I am anti-Afrezza and I am not. I absolutely want Afrezza to continue to be available, but there is an idea that it's a magic bullet. For some people that may well be the case, diabetes is sufficiently diverse, but more generally it seems to be used as part of the toolkit. This is one of the reasons I am so interested in the Single Afrezza dose plus AID approach. I can use Afrezza to kneecap that initial spike, but I don't need to be accurate because the AID will clean up. If I took to much then the AID will reduce my basal to give me room, if I took to little I am dealling with a smaller spike so it's easier on the algorithm. My theory is that by using Afrezza with an AID system I can effectively use the AID as a closed loop system and need not tell it about events at all. Anyway - that's just a theory right now:) I only know a few Type 2 diabetics so this is pretty much about Type 1; The group I know are very engaged in their treatment because it's literally your life, and not amputations or CKD or eyesight or other complications, but dead in less than a day if you get it wrong. That makes it hard to always do what the endo asks, and makes you check everything. There is the old adage about making breakfast - the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. The two great lies Type 1 diabetics are always told are: there will be a cure in the next 5 years, and this treatment is the magic bullet. Any time someone says that their credibility automatically drops. There have been to many disappointments in the past. " The computer checks BG readings every five minutes or so, looks up how much insulin it has given you, and makes sure you are still within the margin of error." - That seems as about as close to the human pancreas than anything else right now, other than the time it takes to control the spikes that occur every time you sit down to eat a meal followed by the long tail. The interest in the single Afrezza dose at meal time to keep the BG in between that target zone, I would think, should be a significant clinical benefit to managing the disease. It can be a great tool, although PWDs will still need to inhale a minimum of 3X daily, if eating three meals plus more if they snack or decide to have a "me day" and treat themselves to a little something-something extra. "...diabetes is sufficiently diverse, but more generally it seems to be used as part of the toolkit." - I agree, hence my thoughts on the variables that go into managing this. Just far to many moving parts trying to mange diabetes and I guess the way you prefer to manage it is with the "less is more" philosophy. That makes total sense and why wouldn't it? I also believe I hear you saying that "less is more" doesn't always equate to "less is best"...because of the dynamics I described in my post, at play. "The two great lies Type 1 diabetics are always told are: there will be a cure in the next 5 years, and this treatment is the magic bullet. Any time someone says that their credibility automatically drops. There have been to many disappointments in the past." - At your level managing the disease, sure. As a new PWD...it may very well be those words that encourage someone to take this seriously. As you said, by the way new to me and funny as all get out...You don't want to wind up being the pig. |
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Post by agedhippie on Feb 26, 2023 15:44:01 GMT -5
... It can be a great tool, although PWDs will still need to inhale a minimum of 3X daily, if eating three meals plus more if they snack or decide to have a "me day" and treat themselves to a little something-something extra. ...
I also believe I hear you saying that "less is more" doesn't always equate to "less is best"...because of the dynamics I described in my post, at play. ...
As a new PWD...it may very well be those words that encourage someone to take this seriously. As you said, by the way new to me and funny as all get out...You don't want to wind up being the pig. The pump can deal with small quantities of carbs (20g or so) without being told about them so a certain amount of snacking is free. I probably would only use Afrezza at a meal and not for snacks. I would fall back on a bolus from the pump for that. It's not a reflection on Afrezza, but more that I wouldn't carry the inhaler and cartridges around with me just as I don't carry around my pen today (which is not good practice I know!) What makes a new type 1 take it seriously the ambulance ride to hospital where they hook you up to various drips, and the doctor telling you the bad news. I remember saying I didn't think I could inject myself and the doctor saying in that case I would be dead before the next day. At which point I discovered I could inject myself quite happily! Oddly the idea of injecting is considerably worse than the reality - this is also why I think that Afrezza should focus on new Type 1s rather than the existing. I never presume to tell a diabetic how to manage their diabetes unless they very explicitly ask. My view is that we all reach our peace with this disease in our own way and it's not for me to tell them that they are wrong (not least because they may not be). That peace can be via always under 120 (the flatline group), the LCHF diet people trying for minimal carbs, or the minimal involvement group, and hundreds of other approaches. It's about finding a way to feel you have some control, this is mental and not physical. I wasn't quite clear with my breakfast analogy; breakfast is diabetes, the chicken is everyone (especially endos) telling you how to manage it, and the pig is the diabetic.  |
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Post by sayhey24 on Feb 26, 2023 19:16:14 GMT -5
... The thing is its during meals when BG goes whacky. If the PWD never ate and just sat still all day their BG would be pretty flat. That is not reality. If so Tresiba would easily win over the Aid. The advantage of the AID over Tresiba is at mealtime but we see afrezza kicks butt here over the AID. Aged's argument is with afrezza you have to check you BG 60minutes after eating and maybe 90minutes and even 2 hrs. What PWD on a CGM is not going to check? I would say very few. Come on - how hard is it to look at your phone? ... In this part of the study they did not second dose afrezza. They let the AID handle the BG after 2 hrs when afrezza is gone. If they second dosed afrezza with Tresiba there is little doubt it will win. As a diabetic I can tell you that while sitting in a room doing nothing you body is quite capable of messing with your BG. This is the approach that endos take and the over-simplification drives the diabetics I know wild. You end up with the endo saying you must have done something because they cannot comprehend in a tidy universe how it could happen. What diabetic with a CGM isn't going to check? Almost all the ones I know. You check when something feels wrong, or on impulse, you don't check according to a timetable - that's letting diabetes run your life. I can delegate all that checking to the AID, and hey it can do the correction as well! Now I can get on with my life and not think about diabetes. That second dose model is the one that interests me. I have zero interest in the Afrezza plus Tresiba because it's increasing my diabetes workload. Aged - come on man! Increases your workload? How much workload is taking a sip of water which is about the same as taking afrezza. What will increase your workload is chasing high BG and then angry bolus chasing it. BTW - they have these new fangled phones which are not plugged into a wall outlet. I hear you can even take them outside so you can get on with your life. I have even heard they have these new kind of watches which talks with these phones. Maybe your friends have these hooked up to their CGMs and check their BG on their watch so you would be correct they are not checking their phones. Also - my over simplification works really well for most not using subq insulin, especially an RAA. I can believe that your BG is all over the place all the time even when you aren't doing anything because you are doing something as you have your subq insulin onboard. Predicting absorption rate is near impossible and as you are sitting there your subq insulin is still working. You keep trying to say afrezza is more work. I will say there are many people on social media saying the opposite and saying afrezza has given them their lives back. You may want to give it a try and see if these people are correct. |
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Post by bones1026 on Feb 26, 2023 20:13:13 GMT -5
As a diabetic I can tell you that while sitting in a room doing nothing you body is quite capable of messing with your BG. This is the approach that endos take and the over-simplification drives the diabetics I know wild. You end up with the endo saying you must have done something because they cannot comprehend in a tidy universe how it could happen. What diabetic with a CGM isn't going to check? Almost all the ones I know. You check when something feels wrong, or on impulse, you don't check according to a timetable - that's letting diabetes run your life. I can delegate all that checking to the AID, and hey it can do the correction as well! Now I can get on with my life and not think about diabetes. That second dose model is the one that interests me. I have zero interest in the Afrezza plus Tresiba because it's increasing my diabetes workload. Aged - come on man! Increases your workload? How much workload is taking a sip of water which is about the same as taking afrezza. What will increase your workload is chasing high BG and then angry bolus chasing it. BTW - they have these new fangled phones which are not plugged into a wall outlet. I hear you can even take them outside so you can get on with your life. I have even heard they have these new kind of watches which talks with these phones. Maybe your friends have these hooked up to their CGMs and check their BG on their watch so you would be correct they are not checking their phones. Also - my over simplification works really well for most not using subq insulin, especially an RAA. I can believe that your BG is all over the place all the time even when you aren't doing anything because you are doing something as you have your subq insulin onboard. Predicting absorption rate is near impossible and as you are sitting there your subq insulin is still working. You keep trying to say afrezza is more work. I will say there are many people on social media saying the opposite and saying afrezza has given them their lives back. You may want to give it a try and see if these people are correct. Aged- Since you’re not an investor, I’ve always been curious why you share your incredible knowledge about diabetes, on a stock MB? You come to stocktwits to talk about living with diabetes? |
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Post by sportsrancho on Feb 26, 2023 22:00:28 GMT -5
Well, we could have blue checks and verify everybody’s identity. Then your stock position and then put your real picture up also… then you’d have to verify your share account. Next is your age and your Social Security number.🤣😂😆
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Post by agedhippie on Feb 26, 2023 23:04:36 GMT -5
Aged- Since you’re not an investor, I’ve always been curious why you share your incredible knowledge about diabetes, on a stock MB? Because I have been here for eight years now and I still enjoy it. I am glad you find my knowledge useful. |
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Post by lennymnkd on Feb 27, 2023 2:23:26 GMT -5
How many times does an average person check their phone a day?
The average American spends 5 hours and 24 minutes on their mobile device each day. On average, Americans check their phones at least 96 times per day, or once every ten minutes.
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Post by hellodolly on Feb 27, 2023 7:03:27 GMT -5
How many times does an average person check their phone a day? The average American spends 5 hours and 24 minutes on their mobile device each day. On average, Americans check their phones at least 96 times per day, or once every ten minutes. Yes, especially the younger generation that were born with them in their hands and use them for everything. Phone...how long until you hold your watch up and ask Siri what your current BG level is and she answers you, "You're current BG level is XXX. Would you like your V-GO device to administer XX dose of insulin" and get a follow up confirmation text that the dose was administered? The dialogue I've had with @agedhippe in this thread has taught me that the AIDs are a tool that provides plenty of convenience, security, peace of mind and an improvement to managing the disease. I had not taken the time to really discover how valuable a tool an AID can be for PWDs and how it can be leveraged to maximize the time spent managing diabetes. With that said, we can't ignore the same traits of convenience, security, peace of mind and improvement to managing diabetes for those who use Afrezza, either at meal time or to chase a pesky excursion. Whether one decides to wear an AID or not, or whether want to make Afrezza part a of their insulin therapy or not...they can be mutually inclusive at the discretion of the users. That's just one of the many attributes of Afrezza. It can be used with anything available on the market, AIDs, CGMs, an assortment of various types of insulins, in adults & children, as many times a day as needed, etc. It fits in every lifestyle. |
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Post by sayhey24 on Feb 27, 2023 9:10:16 GMT -5
How many times does an average person check their phone a day? The average American spends 5 hours and 24 minutes on their mobile device each day. On average, Americans check their phones at least 96 times per day, or once every ten minutes. Yes, especially the younger generation that were born with them in their hands and use them for everything. Phone...how long until you hold your watch up and ask Siri what your current BG level is and she answers you, "You're current BG level is XXX. Would you like your V-GO device to administer XX dose of insulin" and get a follow up confirmation text that the dose was administered? The dialogue I've had with @agedhippe in this thread has taught me that the AIDs are a tool that provides plenty of convenience, security, peace of mind and an improvement to managing the disease. I had not taken the time to really discover how valuable a tool an AID can be for PWDs and how it can be leveraged to maximize the time spent managing diabetes. With that said, we can't ignore the same traits of convenience, security, peace of mind and improvement to managing diabetes for those who use Afrezza, either at meal time or to chase a pesky excursion. Whether one decides to wear an AID or not, or whether want to make Afrezza part a of their insulin therapy or not...they can be mutually inclusive at the discretion of the users. That's just one of the many attributes of Afrezza. It can be used with anything available on the market, AIDs, CGMs, an assortment of various types of insulins, in adults & children, as many times a day as needed, etc. It fits in every lifestyle. Dolly - for whats its worth if MNKD does follow-up and actually does the large study this time - the last time they never followed up with Kendalls work If the Tresiba numbers are close to the afrezza plus AID - IMO we are looking at the new Standard of Care. Of course MNKD will need a partner to strong arm the community. BTW - "Would you like your V-GO device to administer XX dose of insulin" is never happening. " The V-Go is a dumb device with a spring which provides a fixed dose. You can push the button to bolus but its 100% manual. |
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Post by uvula on Feb 27, 2023 9:16:35 GMT -5
How many times does an average person check their phone a day? The average American spends 5 hours and 24 minutes on their mobile device each day. On average, Americans check their phones at least 96 times per day, or once every ten minutes. How many times per day do I check mnkd.proboards.com? More than I care to admit. And my life does not depend on it. |
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