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Post by mnkdorbust on Jan 19, 2016 15:17:06 GMT -5
Spiro heard that JPG and Babaoriley would like a new Technosphere Cyanide inhaler to help put them out of their misery. Spiro here, Ok, Spiro would probably take a puff or two also. Puff... Puff....Give
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 15:24:41 GMT -5
Inhaled fentanyl would be extraordinarily dangerous and highly addictive. The tachyphylaxis caused by it would in of itself be devastating. If you sources are correct this would be a super big error. Any company doing this would need to be way out of the loop with the DEA and narcotics. It would never pass the FDA (but might get a Mexican cartel's support...). care to detail further on the addictive part where there are other aerosol fentanyl in market? What other aerosol fentanyl are you refering to? The liposolubility and redistribution half life would make this almost the equivalent of bolus IV fentanyl which is much much more addictive (and deadly) than IV morphine use. Inhaled fentanyl would be one of the most addctive drugs ever and would bypass the IV route (which is a huge barrier saving a lot of people from the ravages of IV narcotics.
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Post by mnholdem on Jan 19, 2016 15:25:32 GMT -5
Interesting. Basically another strike (as far as I am concerned anyway) against Mannkind credibility. Sadly a 'scientific strike' though... Background:
Fentanyl, also known as Actiq, Duragesic, and Sublimaze, is a powerful opiate used for pain control. It is similar but much more potent than morphine. It is used to treat severe pain in individuals with injuries or chronic illness, after surgery or prescribed for individuals who are tolerant to other opiates. Fentanyl use disorder often occurs either due to the euphoric effects it produces during treatment, or due to the availability of stronger versions which produce even greater positive moods when mixed with heroin or cocaine. Often what starts as appropriate pain management can turn into a situation bordering on addiction without the individual recognizing they are taking the medication for non-medical reasons. Since it works to eliminate all pain in the body, not just the pain for which it was prescribed, and produces a powerful high, its attraction is hard to resist.
Question: MannKind Corporation was working several years ago with Torrie Pines Institute on designing opiates that existing patents describe as have non-addictive properties. Is it possible that a dry formulation of fentanyl may have been developed for pulmonary delivery that could eliminate fentanyl's addictive properties?
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 15:32:56 GMT -5
Interesting. Basically another strike (as far as I am concerned anyway) against Mannkind credibility. Sadly a 'scientific strike' though... Do you have any idea how many people are in desperate need of a drug like that? Just because the FDA has waged a war on pain patients because they can't interdict drugs streaming through our borders, doesn't mean we shouldn't do the compassionate thing and also choose a lucrative option. I strongly disagree. Very few except the terminally ill need this type of drug. This is not a slow release fentanyl patch (which in itself is not a great drug and was choosen for the wrong reasons). This is about saving patients from a dangerous drug/ delivery device combo (and the FDA is not waging a war on pain patients) from a bad highly addictive drug that causes crazy amounts of tachyphylaxis (and tends to kill the average user in a few short years versus more than a decade for IVDU using morphine).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 15:33:50 GMT -5
care to detail further on the addictive part where there are other aerosol fentanyl in market? What other aerosol fentanyl are you refering to? The liposolubility and redistribution half life would make this almost the equivalent of bolus IV fentanyl which is much much more addictive (and deadly) than IV morphine use. Inhaled fentanyl would be one of the most addctive drugs ever and would bypass the IV route (which is a huge barrier saving a lot of people from the ravages of IV narcotics. not my words www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/02/22/forget-mannkind-corporation-here-are-3-better-biot.aspxI think Insys Therapeutics (NASDAQ:INSY) could prove to be the better buy. Insys Therapeutics already has a fast-growing commercial drug on the market. The company's quick-acting fentanyl spray Subsys for breakthrough cancer pain saw its sales surge 105% to $58 million in the third quarter. The drug is the leading immediate release fentanyl drug in a market that Insys estimates is worth $471 million a year. If the company can win FDA approval for its oral formulation of the anti-nausea drug marinol for chemotherapy patients, it could have a second drug with nine-figure potential on its hands in the coming year. But it's not just Subsys and oral marinol that are intriguing to me; Insys is also researching the use of the marijuana cannabinoid CBD in epilepsy patients, and the company just reported that the FDA had granted orphan drug designation for a version of Insys' paclitaxel for potential use in ovarian cancer. With a growing cash stockpile, no debt on the books, and an intriguing pipeline, I think Insys Therapeutics could be a top performer. Read more: mnkd.proboards.com/thread/4958/price-nightmare-continues?page=4#ixzz3xiytfjG0
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 15:40:43 GMT -5
Interesting. Basically another strike (as far as I am concerned anyway) against Mannkind credibility. Sadly a 'scientific strike' though... Background:
Fentanyl, also known as Actiq, Duragesic, and Sublimaze, is a powerful opiate used for pain control. It is similar but much more potent than morphine. It is used to treat severe pain in individuals with injuries or chronic illness, after surgery or prescribed for individuals who are tolerant to other opiates. Fentanyl use disorder often occurs either due to the euphoric effects it produces during treatment, or due to the availability of stronger versions which produce even greater positive moods when mixed with heroin or cocaine. Often what starts as appropriate pain management can turn into a situation bordering on addiction without the individual recognizing they are taking the medication for non-medical reasons. Since it works to eliminate all pain in the body, not just the pain for which it was prescribed, and produces a powerful high, its attraction is hard to resist.
Question: MannKind Corporation was working several years ago with Torrie Pines Institute on designing opiates that existing patents describe as have non-addictive properties. Is it possible that a dry formulation of fentanyl may have been developed for pulmonary delivery that could eliminate fentanyl's addictive properties?
No the TP version of the drug was a peptide that probably did not cross the blood brain barrier and was non addictive. Fentanyll is poison when used chronically. Inhaled it is a short acting poison (because it's users will die quickly from overdoses). All you state about the side effects are directly related to liposulubility and only Sufentanyl is more potent and dangerous (IVDUs using it die on average in less than a year compared to 'a few' on fentanyl and well over 10 on morpine). There is no other way of sugar coating this (and the extraordinary lapse in scientific judgement that Mannkind seems to be having if it wants to make an inhalable fentanyl): tbis is sloppy science (and maybe a desperate management...).
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 15:58:06 GMT -5
What other aerosol fentanyl are you refering to? The liposolubility and redistribution half life would make this almost the equivalent of bolus IV fentanyl which is much much more addictive (and deadly) than IV morphine use. Inhaled fentanyl would be one of the most addctive drugs ever and would bypass the IV route (which is a huge barrier saving a lot of people from the ravages of IV narcotics. not my words www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/02/22/forget-mannkind-corporation-here-are-3-better-biot.aspxI think Insys Therapeutics (NASDAQ:INSY) could prove to be the better buy. Insys Therapeutics already has a fast-growing commercial drug on the market. The company's quick-acting fentanyl spray Subsys for breakthrough cancer pain saw its sales surge 105% to $58 million in the third quarter. The drug is the leading immediate release fentanyl drug in a market that Insys estimates is worth $471 million a year. If the company can win FDA approval for its oral formulation of the anti-nausea drug marinol for chemotherapy patients, it could have a second drug with nine-figure potential on its hands in the coming year. But it's not just Subsys and oral marinol that are intriguing to me; Insys is also researching the use of the marijuana cannabinoid CBD in epilepsy patients, and the company just reported that the FDA had granted orphan drug designation for a version of Insys' paclitaxel for potential use in ovarian cancer. With a growing cash stockpile, no debt on the books, and an intriguing pipeline, I think Insys Therapeutics could be a top performer. Read more: mnkd.proboards.com/thread/4958/price-nightmare-continues?page=4#ixzz3xiytfjG0Yeah 'legal' (see below...) sellers of extremely powerful narcotics tend to do well... Hmmm. Who would have thought that? Sublingual fentanyl (or lollypops) is one order of magnitude slower than inhaled so a bit safer but still highly addictive and a bad idea (unless you want to get around the DEA...). There is no way any semi rational regulator would ever consider inhaled fentanyl. That would be worst than reckless. It actually scares me that Mannkind could even put it on their list of potential TS candidates. Are the other choices also so poorly thought out? This is not rocket science (for anyone who has even a very basic understanding of narcotic pk/pd. mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/14/business/doubts-raised-about-off-label-use-of-subsys-a-strong-painkiller.html?referer=&_r=0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 16:06:27 GMT -5
Yeah 'legal' (see below...) sellers of extremely powerful narcotics tend to do well... Hmmm. Who would have thought that? Sublingual fentanyl (or lollypops) is one order of magnitude slower than inhaled so a bit safer but still highly addictive and a bad idea (unless you want to get around the DEA...). There is no way any semi rational regulator would ever consider inhaled fentanyl. That would be worst than reckless. It actually scares me that Mannkind could even put it on their list of potential TS candidates. Are the other choices also so poorly thought out? This is not rocket science (for anyone who has even a very basic understanding of narcotic pk/pd. mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/14/business/doubts-raised-about-off-label-use-of-subsys-a-strong-painkiller.html?referer=&_r=0caan we stay on topic and context?
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Post by factspls88 on Jan 19, 2016 16:10:00 GMT -5
I am starting to feel like an idiot for holding onto this stock for as long as I have. I had hoped for a speedy announcement from MNKD regarding the TS partner alluded to at JPM for at least a bounce. And now another GS downgrade. What the heck was the point of that other than to put a nail in MNKD's coffin? Seems like everytime you think it can't go down any lower, it does. Sorry all, I just needed to vent.
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 16:16:29 GMT -5
Yeah 'legal' (see below...) sellers of extremely powerful narcotics tend to do well... Hmmm. Who would have thought that? Sublingual fentanyl (or lollypops) is one order of magnitude slower than inhaled so a bit safer but still highly addictive and a bad idea (unless you want to get around the DEA...). There is no way any semi rational regulator would ever consider inhaled fentanyl. That would be worst than reckless. It actually scares me that Mannkind could even put it on their list of potential TS candidates. Are the other choices also so poorly thought out? This is not rocket science (for anyone who has even a very basic understanding of narcotic pk/pd. mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/14/business/doubts-raised-about-off-label-use-of-subsys-a-strong-painkiller.html?referer=&_r=0caan we stay on topic and context? What are you refering to? You want to discuss the pounding the stock is taking as per the op? Why do you think the stock is taking a pounding? Lack of TS candidate is one of many reasons maybe. Making up stuff like thinking fentanyl could be a good candidate (as per the Mannkind slide provided by Peppy) might be another clue that management is scientifically jumping the shark? And I am following the topic Laker, you and others are discussing: TS candidates. I just happen to have a very different vision than Laker it seems...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 16:24:54 GMT -5
Interesting. Basically another strike (as far as I am concerned anyway) against Mannkind credibility. Sadly a 'scientific strike' though... Do you have any idea how many people are in desperate need of a drug like that? Just because the FDA has waged a war on pain patients because they can't interdict drugs streaming through our borders, doesn't mean we shouldn't do the compassionate thing and also choose a lucrative option. My dog had surgery a couple of months ago and they put a fentanyl patch on him. The vet was very very serious about how we handled touching it when we removed. I kinda laughed it off but my wife told me how dangerous fentanyl is. Of course I didnt believe her and then i started reading about it. A lot of heroin addicts think they can get high from Fentanyl and end up killing themselves. There is a huge increase in fentanyl deaths this year. I am not saying to avoid pain but I'd stay away from fentanyl.
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Post by bill on Jan 19, 2016 16:29:30 GMT -5
Background:
Fentanyl, also known as Actiq, Duragesic, and Sublimaze, is a powerful opiate used for pain control. It is similar but much more potent than morphine. It is used to treat severe pain in individuals with injuries or chronic illness, after surgery or prescribed for individuals who are tolerant to other opiates. Fentanyl use disorder often occurs either due to the euphoric effects it produces during treatment, or due to the availability of stronger versions which produce even greater positive moods when mixed with heroin or cocaine. Often what starts as appropriate pain management can turn into a situation bordering on addiction without the individual recognizing they are taking the medication for non-medical reasons. Since it works to eliminate all pain in the body, not just the pain for which it was prescribed, and produces a powerful high, its attraction is hard to resist.
Question: MannKind Corporation was working several years ago with Torrie Pines Institute on designing opiates that existing patents describe as have non-addictive properties. Is it possible that a dry formulation of fentanyl may have been developed for pulmonary delivery that could eliminate fentanyl's addictive properties?
No the TP version of the drug was a peptide that probably did not cross the blood brain barrier and was non addictive. Fentanyll is poison when used chronically. Inhaled it is a short acting poison (because it's users will die quickly from overdoses). All you state about the side effects are directly related to liposulubility and only Sufentanyl is more potent and dangerous (IVDUs using it die on average in less than a year compared to 'a few' on fentanyl and well over 10 on morpine). There is no other way of sugar coating this (and the extraordinary lapse in scientific judgement that Mannkind seems to be having if it wants to make an inhalable fentanyl): tbis is sloppy science (and maybe a desperate management...). I know absolutely nothing about fentanyl or inhalable fentanyl, but from what I'm reading on the board, jpg believes MNKD's scientists are complete and total idiots. I'd like to suggest we introduce a little common sense into the discussion. Either they are not pursuing it in which case they are not idiots, or they are pursuing it in spite of the OBVIOUS problems being pointed out by jpg. Three choices: 1. MNKD's scientists are idiots 2. MNKD is not pursuing an inhalable fentanyl 3. MNKD is pursuing an inhalable fentanyl in spite of the obvious dangers because they've discovered something not entirely obvious I'm not voting for #1.
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Post by taylor810dn on Jan 19, 2016 16:29:36 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more, MNKD just helps set up this wash/rinse cycle with the pps, first Matt mentions a TS deal that almost happened that day, and then a week and no announcements, this fleecing cycle needs to be broken!! And he mentioned much more transparency and public information, has anyone seen anything since his presentation? It was certainly interesting last week to see several Motley Fool articles that just basically laid out the facts and did not bash MNKD. Then the FUD hits today and we quickly give back what we gained the last 3 days of last week. I'm long but this stock really wears on my patience with it's constant defenseless posture.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 16:32:31 GMT -5
caan we stay on topic and context? What are you refering to? You want to discuss the pounding the stock is taking as per the op? Why do you think the stock is taking a pounding? Lack of TS candidate is one of many reasons maybe. Making up stuff like thinking fentanyl could be a good candidate (as per the Mannkind slide provided by Peppy) might be another clue that management is scientifically jumping the shark? And I am following the topic Laker, you and others are discussing: TS candidates. I just happen to have a very different vision than Laker it seems... Wait a second? MNKD isnt down to .80 cents because GSCO has some grand plan to bring down the company. The stock price is actually a reflection of current Afrezza sales and lack of TS candidates? Get out of here. That is FUD if I have ever heard. The short squeeze is coming. Al will destroy shorts!
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Post by jpg on Jan 19, 2016 16:50:39 GMT -5
No the TP version of the drug was a peptide that probably did not cross the blood brain barrier and was non addictive. Fentanyll is poison when used chronically. Inhaled it is a short acting poison (because it's users will die quickly from overdoses). All you state about the side effects are directly related to liposulubility and only Sufentanyl is more potent and dangerous (IVDUs using it die on average in less than a year compared to 'a few' on fentanyl and well over 10 on morpine). There is no other way of sugar coating this (and the extraordinary lapse in scientific judgement that Mannkind seems to be having if it wants to make an inhalable fentanyl): tbis is sloppy science (and maybe a desperate management...). I know absolutely nothing about fentanyl or inhalable fentanyl, but from what I'm reading on the board, jpg believes MNKD's scientists are complete and total idiots. I'd like to suggest we introduce a little common sense into the discussion. Either they are not pursuing it in which case they are not idiots, or they are pursuing it in spite of the OBVIOUS problems being pointed out by jpg. Three choices: 1. MNKD's scientists are idiots 2. MNKD is not pursuing an inhalable fentanyl 3. MNKD is pursuing an inhalable fentanyl in spite of the obvious dangers because they've discovered something not entirely obvious I'm not voting for #1. I don't know who from Mannkind made up the slide Peppy copied into this discussion but I know that whoever did do it got the fentanyl candidate names from someone at Mannkind with some scientific backgroud (hopefully) and that the TS candidates presented to the world by way of the slide (that's what slides in presentations are for right?) was reviewed by someone at Mannkind with some scientific expertise (hopefully...). All this being true I can comfidently state that whoever put the fentanyl name stay on that list (and let it stay there) is not scientifically literate about the clinical use of narcotics and or is desperately reaching for anything to see what could be 'pulled in' as in 'DEA avoiding type of company' that the NYTimes article I copied in aludes to. Again none of this is complex stuff for those of us who know something about narcotics and read a bit. I can't see one scenario where the simplest of DD would not have very quickly turned Mannkind away from fentanyl as a potential candidate. It's to me scientifically inexcusable.
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