centrn
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Post by centrn on Mar 10, 2017 18:27:46 GMT -5
Matt tell me more about insulin and examples of ectopic tissue bone in heart and brain
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Post by radgray68 on Mar 10, 2017 18:53:33 GMT -5
"It doesn't happen often" Way to split hairs. If you got hung up on main-chain scission and DNA adhesions, nobody would ever get an x-ray. Radiation therapy and nuclear medicine wouldn't exist.
How often does Tylenol kill a patient? Yet it is still sold OTC. You know you can die from too much water right?
This has been enlightening. All I suggested was action by the legal department. I never thought there would be so much push back and concern on THIS board for making sure the ones who spread fear get their fair share of time unopposed. Someone suggested they have to play whack-a-mole here. Well, isn't a request for redaction or clarification part of that game?
Geesh! If you guys are the friendliest supporters for the product, Afrezza is as good as dead.
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Post by sayhey24 on Mar 10, 2017 19:36:46 GMT -5
Call them legal threats if you like. I call it an opportunity to clarify the incorrect assumptions that are killing this product. A "Teachable Event" if you will. An actual lawsuit may have to meet a higher threshold to be legitimized in a court of law, but a shot across the bow is warranted.
As for false or misleading info;
I especially like the one that says the insulin will grow additional lung tissue. WHERE IS THE FDA APPROVED STATISTICS ON THIS? He can say whatever he wants, but Mannkind cant even issue a reply?
“There are some preparations you have to do. You have to put a capsule in the bottle, you have to measure it right, not that you don’t have to measure insulin, but it’s a little more involved,” Dr. Evron said "It’s also about double the cost of injectable insulin."
“It’s irritating. Insulin is a growth hormone. So, when you put insulin in the lung, there’s always that fear that you get growth of lung tissue as well,” Dr. Evron said.
It also may not work well in the long run.
“It’s in a foreign place. So, the body attacks it. So, there was some worry about anti-insulin antibodies forming from this. So yes, the question is this could become less effective with time?” Dr. Evron said.
I have worked extensively with a major news agency and I can tell you that they are very good at knowing what letters are really a threat and what can be ignored. It's extremely rare that they will act on a letter simply because the protections are so high and they know it. You stand a better chance sending corrections and relying on an editor to correct things the next time. I would not get into an argument over insulin in lungs. I strongly suspect that insulin can cause lung tissue to grow, after all it's a growth hormone, but I also suspect that it would take far higher doses than you would normally take and hence it is not an issue. Body builders take insulin (illegally) to increase muscle for example. There is no requirement for FDA statistics since the doctor is talking about medicine and not a drug. There is no requirement for doctors to be accurate in what they say (it's opinion) or Dr Oz would have been off the air long ago. Insulin as a growth hormone is really a misnomer. Insulin promotes nutrient translocation not growth. Insulin helps athletes in two ways. In bodybuilders, it works alongside anabolic steroids such as testosterone or human growth hormone to consolidate muscle tissue. Steroids spawn new muscle, and insulin prevents it from being broken down. Growth Hormone (GH) is a hormone responsible for cellular growth in the human body. It is a 191-amino acid, single-chain polypeptide. The human insulin protein is composed of 51 amino acids. GH and insulin are very different. Then you have IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor 1) which consists of 70 amino acids in a single chain. It’s a hormone that has similar properties and effects on the body as insulin. It even binds to the same receptors, but it’s produced under completely the opposite circumstances. Whereas insulin (a hormone responsible primarily for nutrient translocation) is secreted by the pancreas in response to (among other things) elevated blood glucose levels, IGF-1 is secreted by the liver during periods of low blood sugar. IGF-1 then stimulates systemic body growth, and has growth-promoting effects on almost every cell in the body, In addition, a variation of IGF-1 called mechano-growth factor (MGF) is produced in response to intense exercise, like weight training or sprinting. Insulin is also "illegally" taken by runners. It bolsters stamina in middle-distance runners and other track performers by enabling them to load their muscles with glycogen “fuel” before and between events.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 9:05:13 GMT -5
“It’s irritating. Insulin is a growth hormone. So, when you put insulin in the lung, there’s always that fear that you get growth of lung tissue as well,” Dr. Evron said. That one is true. Insulin activates RTK Class II receptors, which can dimerize with any factor that activates the RTK Class II receptor which activates the ATK pathway, one of the principal tissue growth pathways in the human body. There are many examples where growth factors acted strangely and the patient wound up with ectopic tissue deposits in the wrong part of the body (ectopic bone in the heart and brain for example). It doesn't happen often, but if a physician worries that delivering growth factors several times a day directly to the lung will stimulate this type of response you can't say that he is crazy. Other growth factor drugs had to be removed from the market due to similar unintended consequences. You can't ignore legitimate scientific questions and hope they go away, because they won't. The proper solution is to run larger post-marketing safety surveillance studies to quantify the risk. A little data goes a long way. Amazing how people will try to deceive others. If you take that supposition to the next level: one could deduce that pancreatic insulin would cause growth in every cell, but it does not. QED
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Post by sayhey24 on Mar 11, 2017 9:26:55 GMT -5
That one is true. Insulin activates RTK Class II receptors, which can dimerize with any factor that activates the RTK Class II receptor which activates the ATK pathway, one of the principal tissue growth pathways in the human body. There are many examples where growth factors acted strangely and the patient wound up with ectopic tissue deposits in the wrong part of the body (ectopic bone in the heart and brain for example). It doesn't happen often, but if a physician worries that delivering growth factors several times a day directly to the lung will stimulate this type of response you can't say that he is crazy. Other growth factor drugs had to be removed from the market due to similar unintended consequences. You can't ignore legitimate scientific questions and hope they go away, because they won't. The proper solution is to run larger post-marketing safety surveillance studies to quantify the risk. A little data goes a long way. Amazing how people will try to deceive others. If you take that supposition to the next level: one could deduce that pancreatic insulin would cause growth in every cell, but it does not. QED Thank you - exactly. There will be lots of FUD around the lungs. I am sure on a daily basis all of use breathe in a lot worse than human insulin. In a healthy person monomer human insulin should already be circulating in the proper amount in the blood in the lung and else where in the body. Now if you take an Analog and try to get it absorbed through the lung I would say all bets off as results with the Analogs are not predictable and long term effects are not known. We do know what happened during the AspB10 development. And now there are early studies in Europe trying to see if there is a link between the elevated cancer risks in PWD and the Analogs but I do not think they will get much support by Big Pharma.
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Post by peppy on Mar 11, 2017 12:15:46 GMT -5
“It’s irritating. Insulin is a growth hormone. So, when you put insulin in the lung, there’s always that fear that you get growth of lung tissue as well,” Dr. Evron said. That one is true. Insulin activates RTK Class II receptors, which can dimerize with any factor that activates the RTK Class II receptor which activates the ATK pathway, one of the principal tissue growth pathways in the human body. There are many examples where growth factors acted strangely and the patient wound up with ectopic tissue deposits in the wrong part of the body (ectopic bone in the heart and brain for example). It doesn't happen often, but if a physician worries that delivering growth factors several times a day directly to the lung will stimulate this type of response you can't say that he is crazy. Other growth factor drugs had to be removed from the market due to similar unintended consequences. You can't ignore legitimate scientific questions and hope they go away, because they won't. The proper solution is to run larger post-marketing safety surveillance studies to quantify the risk. A little data goes a long way. Wow, a market expert, and a medical expert in one. A number of growth factors stimulate mitogenesis by interacting with a family of cell surface receptors which possess an intrinsic, ligand-sensitive, protein tyrosine kinase activity [PMID: 3052279]. These receptor tyrosine kinases (RTK) all share the same topology: an extracellular ligand-binding domain, a single transmembrane region and a cytoplasmic kinase domain. However they can be classified into at least five groups. The prototype for class II RTK's is the insulin receptor, a heterotetramer of two alpha and two beta chains linked by disulphide bonds. The alpha and beta chains are cleavage products of a precursor molecule. The alpha chain contains the ligand binding site, the beta chain transverses the membrane and contains the tyrosine protein kinase domain. While only the insulin and the insulin growth factor I receptors are known to exist in the tetrameric conformation specific to class II RTK's, all the above proteins share extensive homologies in their kinase domain, especially around the putative site of autophosphorylation. www.ebi.ac.uk/interpro/entry/IPR002011 www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2708066/ www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=define+heterotetramer&oq=de&gs_l=hp.1.0.35i39k1l2j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20k1j0i131k1j0i20k1j0l2j0i131k1.1373.1638.0.4082.3.3.0.0.0.0.235.617.0j1j2.3.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.2.410.0.906Q4gffpvY
Reply: So the RTK Class II receptor is the insulin receptor? These receptors in every cell of the body?
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 11, 2017 12:46:23 GMT -5
That one is true. Insulin activates RTK Class II receptors, which can dimerize with any factor that activates the RTK Class II receptor which activates the ATK pathway, one of the principal tissue growth pathways in the human body. There are many examples where growth factors acted strangely and the patient wound up with ectopic tissue deposits in the wrong part of the body (ectopic bone in the heart and brain for example). It doesn't happen often, but if a physician worries that delivering growth factors several times a day directly to the lung will stimulate this type of response you can't say that he is crazy. Other growth factor drugs had to be removed from the market due to similar unintended consequences. You can't ignore legitimate scientific questions and hope they go away, because they won't. The proper solution is to run larger post-marketing safety surveillance studies to quantify the risk. A little data goes a long way. Amazing how people will try to deceive others. If you take that supposition to the next level: one could deduce that pancreatic insulin would cause growth in every cell, but it does not. QED You are comparing oranges and apples. Circulating insulin regardless of where it comes from is dilute, insulin in lung tissue as it crosses over into the blood stream is concentrated in that tissue. It is those concentrated levels that cause the risk. Insulin does cause growth generally, fetuses are the classic example - insulin balance is critical to development. This only becomes an issue when there is a flaw and you start growing something you shouldn't (ectopic growth). The probability is low but it's definitely something doctors (well endos anyway) worry about. My original concern was cancer but after my endo said that was not an issue as far as he was concerned I am ok with that. He was concerned with an aspect of what Matt talked about, the risk of fibrosis from insulin. Looking at the literature I could see why - there is evidence of a link between IGF and fibrosis, combined with their experience of Exubera they are careful. The lung trial will clear it up once and for all though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 12:48:35 GMT -5
FUDsters will dazzle you with their brilliance, however, it is based on a false premise. They state a false or incomplete statement then argue against the truth.
No need to go into the minutiae, look at the big picture. If insulin is a growth factor, then one would grow uncontrollable and die off rapidly. Since that does not occur, the premise is false: insulin cannot be a growth factor.
When I point this out on Seeking Alpha, my posts are quickly deleted! What does that indicate?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 12:54:51 GMT -5
agedhippie let's assume concentration makes a difference, then injecting insulin or an analog would cause growth at the injection site. Is that seen???
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 11, 2017 13:00:55 GMT -5
FUDsters will dazzle you with their brilliance, however, it is based on a false premise. They state a false or incomplete statement then argue against the truth. No need to go into the minutiae, look at the big picture. If insulin is a growth factor, then one would grow uncontrollable and die off rapidly. Since that does not occur, the premise is false: insulin cannot be a growth factor. When I point this out on Seeking Alpha, my posts are quickly deleted! What does that indicate? Umm, insulin is a growth hormone. That's medical science. You don't get uncontrolled growth because the body is a series of interlocking systems and as one cause cell growth another kills them. This is what causes lean Type 2, there is an imbalance in the creation and destruction of beta cells resulting in a deficit. The opposite reaction is when cell destruction breaks down and cells proliferate potentially leading to a cancer (and my original concern that by endo killed)
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 11, 2017 13:10:52 GMT -5
agedhippie let's assume concentration makes a difference, then injecting insulin or an analog would cause growth at the injection site. Is that seen??? Sometimes, it's called lipohypertrophy and is an excessive growth in the fat cell layer that you are injecting into. I have had it a couple of times over the years. If you stop injecting in that area the body reabsorbs the fat and it goes away. I see my endo or CDE quarterly and that, neuropathy, and thyroid (Type 1 diabetics are pre-disposed to thyroid issues and celiac disease, aren't we the lucky ones?) are part of the usual checks.
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Post by sophie on Mar 11, 2017 13:18:49 GMT -5
God bless you aged. You have far more patience than I do.
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 11, 2017 13:19:35 GMT -5
As a side bar - put insulin and body building into Google for an eye opening experience. There's a whole untapped market out there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 13:23:51 GMT -5
agedhippie "You don't get uncontrolled growth because the body is a series of interlocking systems and as one cause cell growth another kills them." "If you stop injecting in that area the body reabsorbs the fat and it goes away" Incredible! Thank goodness sophie is here to help you out
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 11, 2017 13:29:11 GMT -5
agedhippie "You don't get uncontrolled growth because the body is a series of interlocking systems and as one cause cell growth another kills them." "If you stop injecting in that area the body reabsorbs the fat and it goes away" Incredible! Thank goodness sophie is here to help you out I wasn't clear on the time-line. The lump doesn't disappear immediately you stop injecting there, it took a while but I cannot remember how long it was.
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