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Post by agedhippie on Mar 22, 2017 11:00:59 GMT -5
added: at least there is a "known" mechanism of action with metformin. so many mechanism of action on pharmaceuticals the mechanism of action is unknown. (I think because they start out with mice. Give the mice a condition. Give mice chemical assortments and then see if the chemical affected the condition and then go from there. they run a study to try to show effectiveness. and have no clue why it "seems" to work in some regard.)
That's a common problem. Also the mouse model doesn't work very well for diabetes to the extent that they can cure Type 1 in mice - needless to say they cannot reproduce that in humans. I think there are actually 2 or 3 cures... excuse me while I wander off muttering about bloody mice. As an aside I was reading a paper about amyloid deposits in the pancreas a couple of years ago and the researchers were bemoaning peoples reluctance to give up their pancreas for medical science while they were still alive. I don't think Afrezza has a real phase 2, it's more a tail off of the phase 1.
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Post by peppy on Mar 22, 2017 11:05:52 GMT -5
added: at least there is a "known" mechanism of action with metformin. so many mechanism of action on pharmaceuticals the mechanism of action is unknown. (I think because they start out with mice. Give the mice a condition. Give mice chemical assortments and then see if the chemical affected the condition and then go from there. they run a study to try to show effectiveness. and have no clue why it "seems" to work in some regard.)
That's a common problem. Also the mouse model doesn't work very well for diabetes to the extent that they can cure Type 1 in mice - needless to say they cannot reproduce that in humans. I think there are actually 2 or 3 cures... excuse me while I wander off muttering about bloody mice. As an aside I was reading a paper about amyloid deposits in the pancreas a couple of years ago and the researchers were bemoaning peoples reluctance to give up their pancreas for medical science while they were still alive. I don't think Afrezza has a real phase 2, it's more a tail off of the phase 1. People take basal as well. what is basal aged? long acting insulin. The continuous glucose monitors show how well Afrezza works when titrate correctly. We can not believe our eyes now? We mince words instead? I do not see type one's on fast acting subq's posting their continuous glucose monitors. Because they are too happy about their control to post? They want to keep it a secret how great subq fast acting works? They do not have enough energy anymore to care? etc. etc.
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Post by dreamboatcruise on Mar 22, 2017 12:43:33 GMT -5
That's a common problem. Also the mouse model doesn't work very well for diabetes to the extent that they can cure Type 1 in mice - needless to say they cannot reproduce that in humans. I think there are actually 2 or 3 cures... excuse me while I wander off muttering about bloody mice. As an aside I was reading a paper about amyloid deposits in the pancreas a couple of years ago and the researchers were bemoaning peoples reluctance to give up their pancreas for medical science while they were still alive. I don't think Afrezza has a real phase 2, it's more a tail off of the phase 1. People take basal as well. what is basal aged? long acting insulin. The continuous glucose monitors show how well Afrezza works when titrate correctly. We can not believe our eyes now? We mince words instead? I do not see type one's on fast acting subq's posting their continuous glucose monitors. Because they are too happy about their control to post? They want to keep it a secret how great subq fast acting works? They do not have enough energy anymore to care? etc. etc.
To be fair, are you looking for twitter accounts and facebook pages of users of subq? Perhaps you are. I for one would not be seeing their posts of glucose monitors even if they were posting them because I am not following or seeking out anyone using subq. I do routinely go to twitter and do search for #afrezza.
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Post by peppy on Mar 22, 2017 12:55:49 GMT -5
People take basal as well. what is basal aged? long acting insulin. The continuous glucose monitors show how well Afrezza works when titrate correctly. We can not believe our eyes now? We mince words instead? I do not see type one's on fast acting subq's posting their continuous glucose monitors. Because they are too happy about their control to post? They want to keep it a secret how great subq fast acting works? They do not have enough energy anymore to care? etc. etc.
To be fair, are you looking for twitter accounts and facebook pages of users of subq? Perhaps you are. I for one would not be seeing their posts of glucose monitors even if they were posting them because I am not following or seeking out anyone using subq. I do routinely go to twitter and do search for #afrezza. to be fair, I go to twitter occasionally, as an example once every three weeks now. I do however click on the mnkd media threads, twitter, reversed health, diabetes hands, sam's tweets, damon dash, Laura K, afrezza users on facebook. I only went to diabetes mine once, and realized I had no business there that the people there were exchanging ideas and working through their own personal hells.
I found this board 5/15? Aged and other subq users on this board have never once posted a continuous glucose monitor showing the great results of subq fast acting. We have however discussed stuff that I do not see happening any time soon, like artificial pancreas. Anything else to be fair? oh yes, I have read the FDA and package inserts of many of the drugs given diabetics. How about You? Seen any continuous glucose monitors from subq fast acting diabetics?
Added: I miss spoke. I have seen Mike's from diabetes mine continuous glucose monitor when he has posted, his afrezza corrections because he is soooooo hyperglycemic. Mike the diabetes mine person has so many connections he was able to have insurance cover both his subq fast acting and afrezza, plus he has a CGM and access to all the support system mechanisms I can think of. Good point dreamboat. The continuing glucose monitors of subq fast acting users I have seen, scream, help. Additionally, I have one dead at a very young age in her 40's dead type one friend. I have seen medicine create iatrogenic diabetes, in the hospital and home settings. Medicine never said, it was medication induced, just told the people they were diabetic.
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 22, 2017 16:46:51 GMT -5
To be fair, are you looking for twitter accounts and facebook pages of users of subq? Perhaps you are. I for one would not be seeing their posts of glucose monitors even if they were posting them because I am not following or seeking out anyone using subq. I do routinely go to twitter and do search for #afrezza. to be fair, I go to twitter occasionally, as an example once every three weeks now. I do however click on the mnkd media threads, twitter, reversed health, diabetes hands, sam's tweets, damon dash, Laura K, afrezza users on facebook. I only went to diabetes mine once, and realized I had no business there that the people there were exchanging ideas and working through their own personal hells.
I found this board 5/15? Aged and other subq users on this board have never once posted a continuous glucose monitor showing the great results of subq fast acting. We have however discussed stuff that I do not see happening any time soon, like artificial pancreas. Anything else to be fair? oh yes, I have read the FDA and package inserts of many of the drugs given diabetics. How about You? Seen any continuous glucose monitors from subq fast acting diabetics?
I suppose I ought to talk about this. By and large diabetics do not post CGM images because so few have a CGM, maybe 20% on a good day, but more because there is a feeling of intrusion around it. Diabetics get judged all the time for their numbers and they get *really* touchy about it. The flip side is that when they see a CGM snap or meter results they always wonder what went before and after those results, again because if it was them they may be tempted to scope it to just the bit that proves their point. I look at a lot of the Afrezza shots and I wouldn't be comfortable with them, I see hypos in many of them. I start to wonder what they are doing as well, or is that natural fluctuation (mikep talking about his morning problems). I have no idea what they eat, dose, or anything else. It means the CGM is interesting but ultimately pointless - it is relevant to only the user. Now this is going to be a wildly unpopular position and it's why I have never talked about it in the past because I didn't want to put up all the flak it will attract. It's easier just to keep quiet but you seem reasonable Preppy so I figured I owed it to you.
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Post by agedhippie on Mar 22, 2017 16:55:17 GMT -5
Here is a slide deck by a pediatric endo who has been a type 1 since 1966. He has a lot of CGM shots and commentary on what is happening and why. It's all interesting but you probably want to start at around slide 128.
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Post by sayhey24 on Mar 22, 2017 17:05:20 GMT -5
Here is a slide deck by a pediatric endo who has been a type 1 since 1966. He has a lot of CGM shots and commentary on what is happening and why. It's all interesting but you probably want to start at around slide 128. It looks like this slide deck is OBE by Mannkind's patent.
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Post by peppy on Mar 22, 2017 17:11:41 GMT -5
Here is a slide deck by a pediatric endo who has been a type 1 since 1966. He has a lot of CGM shots and commentary on what is happening and why. It's all interesting but you probably want to start at around slide 128. Thanks aged for all your honesty and the pics! I saw swings like squirrels in a trees on a sunfilled winters day.(remember Sun? )However those are fun to watch. I saw the endo know exactly what they are doing. I guess afrezza is not difficult to learn. I see why diabetics do not like to show their CGM. (regarding intrusion, intrusion to me is feeding that info to the physicians office 24/7 as in libre.)
I looked at monitors for years. can read them at a glance still. Plenty of scary stuff on monitors all the time. Especially heart monitors.
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Post by sayhey24 on Mar 22, 2017 17:25:24 GMT -5
Here is a slide deck by a pediatric endo who has been a type 1 since 1966. He has a lot of CGM shots and commentary on what is happening and why. It's all interesting but you probably want to start at around slide 128. Thanks aged for all your honesty and the pics! I saw swings like squirrels in a trees. However those are fun to watch. I saw the endo know exactly what they are doing. I guess afrezza is not difficult to learn. I see why diabetics do not like to show their CGM. (regarding intrusion, intrusion to me is feeding that info to the physicians office 24/7 as in libre.)
I looked at monitors for years. can read them at a glance still. Plenty of scary stuff on monitors all the time. Especially heart monitors.
I think this slide deck is a great example of why PWD's want to follow MNKD's patent. I would sum it up as a BIG mess. Now, I see on page 61 2% incurred severe hypo's when using afrezza with metformin while 21% with Metformin and Secretagogue and basically zero with afrezza alone. I can see ZERO benefit to continue Metofrmin with either the new T2 or the T2 already on metformin. Can you imagine the benefits the brand new T2s could get if put on afrezza day one! If all the studies about early insulin are true many T2 could basically be cured. I know this would not be good for the Endos and Big Pharma but how great for T2 PWDs. As good as the studies are I bet they would have gotten even better results with afrezza.
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Post by peppy on Mar 22, 2017 17:31:34 GMT -5
Thanks aged for all your honesty and the pics! I saw swings like squirrels in a trees. However those are fun to watch. I saw the endo know exactly what they are doing. I guess afrezza is not difficult to learn. I see why diabetics do not like to show their CGM. (regarding intrusion, intrusion to me is feeding that info to the physicians office 24/7 as in libre.)
I looked at monitors for years. can read them at a glance still. Plenty of scary stuff on monitors all the time. Especially heart monitors.
I think this slide deck is a great example of why PWD's want to follow MNKD's patent. I would sum it up as a BIG mess. Now, I see on page 61 2% incurred severe hypo's when using afrezza with metformin while 21% with Metformin and Secretagogue and basically zero with afrezza alone. I can see ZERO benefit to continue Metofrmin with either the new T2 or the T2 already on metformin. Can you imagine the benefits the brand new T2s could get if put on afrezza day one! If all the studies about early insulin are true many T2 could basically be cured. I know this would not be good for the Endos and Big Pharma but how great for T2 PWDs. As good as the studies are I bet they would have gotten even better results with afrezza. I am so jaded now, I have come to realize, that is exactly why it will never happen. Mitch McConnell is willing to kill his own people, to reduce the population of poor.
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Post by dreamboatcruise on Mar 22, 2017 17:35:21 GMT -5
Thanks aged for all your honesty and the pics! I saw swings like squirrels in a trees. However those are fun to watch. I saw the endo know exactly what they are doing. I guess afrezza is not difficult to learn. I see why diabetics do not like to show their CGM. (regarding intrusion, intrusion to me is feeding that info to the physicians office 24/7 as in libre.)
I looked at monitors for years. can read them at a glance still. Plenty of scary stuff on monitors all the time. Especially heart monitors.
I think this slide deck is a great example of why PWD's want to follow MNKD's patent. I would sum it up as a BIG mess. Now, I see on page 61 2% incurred severe hypo's when using afrezza with metformin while 21% with Metformin and Secretagogue and basically zero with afrezza alone. I can see ZERO benefit to continue Metofrmin with either the new T2 or the T2 already on metformin. Can you imagine the benefits the brand new T2s could get if put on afrezza day one! If all the studies about early insulin are true many T2 could basically be cured. I know this would not be good for the Endos and Big Pharma but how great for T2 PWDs. As good as the studies are I bet they would have gotten even better results with afrezza. It's long been talked about here and many of us can imagine it. In reality, if it comes to pass, it is a LONG ways in the future, and in the meantime imagining it is all we get.
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Post by sayhey24 on Mar 22, 2017 17:48:10 GMT -5
I think this slide deck is a great example of why PWD's want to follow MNKD's patent. I would sum it up as a BIG mess. Now, I see on page 61 2% incurred severe hypo's when using afrezza with metformin while 21% with Metformin and Secretagogue and basically zero with afrezza alone. I can see ZERO benefit to continue Metofrmin with either the new T2 or the T2 already on metformin. Can you imagine the benefits the brand new T2s could get if put on afrezza day one! If all the studies about early insulin are true many T2 could basically be cured. I know this would not be good for the Endos and Big Pharma but how great for T2 PWDs. As good as the studies are I bet they would have gotten even better results with afrezza. It's long been talked about here and many of us can imagine it. In reality, if it comes to pass, it is a LONG ways in the future, and in the meantime imagining it is all we get. I listened to Josh Riffe the other week. I think he may have plans to make things happen a bit faster. They are expecting to bring product to market next year. Whether they use afrezza or not you would have to ask Mr. Riffe. But I really like the patent so that Mannkind can now license and get paid for both product and the "protocol". I have no knowledge of what happened to Vdex but I would not be surprised if they got briefed on the patent and the protocol would need to be licensed. This also makes sense in context of Mike's comment about selling direct if clinics are franchised using the MNKD protocol. MNKD would directly supply the franchises be it Vdex, Onduo or anyone else.
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Post by dreamboatcruise on Mar 22, 2017 19:00:50 GMT -5
It's long been talked about here and many of us can imagine it. In reality, if it comes to pass, it is a LONG ways in the future, and in the meantime imagining it is all we get. I listened to Josh Riffe the other week. I think he may have plans to make things happen a bit faster. They are expecting to bring product to market next year. Whether they use afrezza or not you would have to ask Mr. Riffe. But I really like the patent so that Mannkind can now license and get paid for both product and the "protocol". I have no knowledge of what happened to Vdex but I would not be surprised if they got briefed on the patent and the protocol would need to be licensed. This also makes sense in context of Mike's comment about selling direct if clinics are franchised using the MNKD protocol. MNKD would directly supply the franchises be it Vdex, Onduo or anyone else. "Bringing something to market," whatever that something is, doesn't change ADA guidelines, much less prescribing behavior of doctors. As we've learned, Endos are pretty conservative and reluctant to adopt change. Even though many PCP treat diabetes, the Endos are the ones that set the treatment guidelines, most PCP follow them, and insurers base payment on them. Early prandial insulin intervention isn't going to be something widespread for many years from now. I'll believe the licensing of this patent when I see it. And even if this really were a patent they could enforce against VDEX or doctors like VDEX, it would merely drive up costs they'd have to pass on to patients... and some say Afrezza is already too expensive of a treatment. Not to mention that I'm sure doctors would think pretty darn poorly of a drug company coming after them for additional revenue stream on top of the drug cost. I suspect that would be a bad business move. Though I also suspect this patent really isn't worth much when it comes to enforcing it.
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Post by peppy on Mar 22, 2017 19:34:22 GMT -5
"Every picture tells a story, don't it? " -Rod Stewart (Thank you aged. I love you.)
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Post by dreamboatcruise on Mar 22, 2017 19:51:09 GMT -5
peppy... well that one certainly doesn't look good.
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