|
|
Post by anderson on Apr 3, 2016 18:20:45 GMT -5
We should be helping users. I dispute your assessment of the current discount card; however, I never said to stop other offerings. I also never said to charge the end user a dime. I basically said to price Afrezza at parity with the lowest priced competitor [SNY], but subtract out what Sanofi would have cost Mannkind at 65%. So, to be clear. The card caps the cost for a prescription at $30. Your solution has it at $41 and uncapped. Therefore reducing the cost only benefits the PBMs and insurers since they are the ones who pick up the difference. Sell them Afrezza at $41 or $141 it still costs the user $30 with a card so all you are doing is giving away margin (to the PBMs). Hmm, but giving the insurance companies a bit more savings would mean Afrezza moved to a preferred tier and more scripts written with co-pays equal to the competition. Wouldn't that be nice to have a even playing field? Lowering the price for both insurance companies and patients is beneficial to everyone. And people who say why worry about the margins the insurance companies make money, need to readjust their socialist liberal thinking, since we are in a capitalistic society everyone wants to make and is entitled to make a profit for their work. |
|
|
|
Post by jerrys on Apr 3, 2016 19:35:13 GMT -5
So, to be clear. The card caps the cost for a prescription at $30. Your solution has it at $41 and uncapped. Therefore reducing the cost only benefits the PBMs and insurers since they are the ones who pick up the difference. Sell them Afrezza at $41 or $141 it still costs the user $30 with a card so all you are doing is giving away margin (to the PBMs). Hmm, but giving the insurance companies a bit more savings would mean Afrezza moved to a preferred tier and more scripts written with co-pays equal to the competition. Wouldn't that be nice to have a even playing field? Lowering the price for both insurance companies and patients is beneficial to everyone. And people who say why worry about the margins the insurance companies make money, need to readjust their socialist liberal thinking, since we are in a capitalistic society everyone wants to make and is entitled to make a profit for their work. "Wouldn't that be nice to have a even playing field?" Indeed, it would be. However, it is unlikely to happen. The BPs are filthy rich and possess significant leverage with third party reimbursers. If they want afrezza shoved to the tier 3 back shelf, they will negotiate their own contracts to insure that's where it stays. The only way around them is a trial to improve on the non-inferior designation. Unfortunately, that would likely take a great deal of time and money, both of which are in relative short supply for MNKD right now, plus the additional risk that it might fail. |
|
|
|
Post by cathode on Apr 3, 2016 19:54:58 GMT -5
For what its worth, the Sanofi NDC codes appear to mean the following (I have not yet found a free access site which is up to date so as to give the details for the Mannkind labelling) however this list will enable later comparison with the mannkind data when the FDA site is back up to date so we can see what new dose or format the fifth code is in the Mannkind portfolio. Data from www.hipaaspace.com/Medical_Billing/Coding/National_Drug_Code/NDC_Number_Lookup.aspxSanofi code 00024-5874-90 unit strength 4, 90 doses 00024-5882-36 unit strength not stated (seems to be a mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) 00024-5884-63 unit strength not stated (seems to be a different mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) 00024-5894-63 unit strength not stated (but again seems to be a different mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) Perhaps someone who has an afrezza prescription can see on the packaging what codes from Sanofi relate to what permutations of cartridge size? Then we will in due course be able to spot what the new Mannkind 'fifth' label relates to more easily. Perhaps its a bulk pack of 12 unit or 8 unit cartridges, which I think is something some users would welcome? So maybe something very slightly splashy willl be announced in terms of a new pack size or strength, soon. From www.rxlist.com/afrezza-drug/indications-dosage.htmI just made an account on that website (findacode.com) and interpret the following: I should say, however, that the website states that each of these codes was deleted around 2015-03-31. Which might mean they are pre-Sanofi codes. I don't really know whether they become active again once MannKind takes over. Maybe these are how they are actually shipped to Sanofi, as I recall Matt or Hakan discussing the fact that they don't actually do the packaging in their factory. I am a bit out of my element on this stuff... Here is the description for each of them. See if you can figure out how the combo packs work... If these are actually newly-activated codes, then there are two real pieces of news here. First, MannKind seems to be trying to flush inventory. I interpret this from the the 60x 4 strength. Matt has said that any sales are good. There is a huge factory that is a liability if it is not running, and even bigger if it is running and nothing is being sold. The second is that MannKind doesn't seem to be selling the 12 strength cartridges post-Sanofi. Maybe that is related to point 1, that they need to churn out cartridges and get them sold. 12 unit cartridges are bad with respect to that idea. We need to sell cartridges not insulin. The lack of 12 unit makes me think these are actually pre-Sanofi codes, as I mentioned earlier. The 12 unit wasn't approved until the end of April 2015, later than the date these codes were allegedly deleted. If they are new codes, then I have a little bit of speculation, which is now beyond much factual ground. MannKind might offer some steep discount on the 60x 4 strength to use as supplementary to subcutaneous insulin. Remember Amy T's tweet about taking an Afrezza "rage bolus" when she really needed to get her BS down? What if there was a prescription type that was highly discounted and could let diabetics try it. Once people get to try it (AND LEARN IT EXISTS!!!) they have been falling in love with it. |
|
|
|
Post by stevil on Apr 3, 2016 20:39:19 GMT -5
So, to be clear. The card caps the cost for a prescription at $30. Your solution has it at $41 and uncapped. Therefore reducing the cost only benefits the PBMs and insurers since they are the ones who pick up the difference. Sell them Afrezza at $41 or $141 it still costs the user $30 with a card so all you are doing is giving away margin (to the PBMs). Hmm, but giving the insurance companies a bit more savings would mean Afrezza moved to a preferred tier and more scripts written with co-pays equal to the competition. Wouldn't that be nice to have a even playing field? Lowering the price for both insurance companies and patients is beneficial to everyone. And people who say why worry about the margins the insurance companies make money, need to readjust their socialist liberal thinking, since we are in a capitalistic society everyone wants to make and is entitled to make a profit for their work. What would you say if MNKD wanted to make a profit for their work? One drug isn't going to cut too much into an insurance company's margins. If it does, they just raise their rates the following year to make up for it. You can still undercut the competition's co-pays by pricing the drug at the same price as the competition. Every manufacturer makes a contract with each insurance company to sell one unit for x amount. That amount can vary depending on who the insurance company is and what they agree to. Some insurers want to ensure better coverage so they are a little less picky when it comes to how much they will pay for an item. But you get what you pay for, so the premiums for those plans are higher. The cost gets passed down to the client. Insurance companies have very complex but accurate algorithms that let them know how much money it will take to cover all of their clients. Then they divide that number by how many clients they have and charge that amount per person on the plan. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that you don't have to save the insurance company money. You don't have to cut off your nose to spite your face. MNKD can charge competitive pricing for Afrezza to get good tier placement. They don't need to give the house away in order to do it. If they price Afrezza competitively, they will allow their patients to pay the same copays as those who are on the other prandials. That's where the insurance cards come in. MNKD would pay the patient's copay to whatever pharmacy the patient decides to get the script filled. MNKD could recoup full money from the insurance and only miss out on whatever the copay is for that individual person. That way, they make the full amount and still undercut their competition. The insurance companies will make sure they get theirs. And you don't want them to be the ones that profit anyway. All they do with their profits are spread the wealth to their executives and shareholders. They don't ever lower their rates if they overcharged the previous year. So the amount of people you benefit are much smaller when the insurance company "wins". Help the people. Help the drug company that helps people (in this case MNKD, not always). Screw the insurance companies whenever you can... Even the drug companies can shift money around for more R&D to make better drugs in the future. It's never a good thing when an insurance company has a surplus... Sorry, getting off topic... |
|
|
|
Post by anderson on Apr 3, 2016 22:50:33 GMT -5
Widget A and Widget B are the same. I make more profit selling Widget B and get to recommend which Widget buyers should buy. I sell both Widgets, which one should I recommend?
|
|
|
|
Post by stevil on Apr 4, 2016 0:34:35 GMT -5
Boom. Compromise.
Lower the price in the states that have insulin exclusivity deals already in place and keep the prices high in states that don't.
|
|
|
|
Post by peppy on Apr 4, 2016 0:42:13 GMT -5
Boom. Compromise. Lower the price in the states that have insulin exclusivity deals already in place and keep the prices high in states that don't.
the price of afrezza is going to come down. priced now 9 to 11 dollars a day and daily fast acting sq is 3.19/day to insurers.
under the something splashy, IF mnkd to announce afrezza oral. THAT would be splashy. the patent. Read more: mnkd.proboards.com/thread/5250/mannkind-got-oral-insulin-patent?page=1#ixzz42Aw7eeYk
|
|
|
|
Post by victoria on Apr 4, 2016 6:35:52 GMT -5
For what its worth, the Sanofi NDC codes appear to mean the following (I have not yet found a free access site which is up to date so as to give the details for the Mannkind labelling) however this list will enable later comparison with the mannkind data when the FDA site is back up to date so we can see what new dose or format the fifth code is in the Mannkind portfolio. Data from www.hipaaspace.com/Medical_Billing/Coding/National_Drug_Code/NDC_Number_Lookup.aspxSanofi code 00024-5874-90 unit strength 4, 90 doses 00024-5882-36 unit strength not stated (seems to be a mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) 00024-5884-63 unit strength not stated (seems to be a different mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) 00024-5894-63 unit strength not stated (but again seems to be a different mixed pack of 30 plus 60 doses) Perhaps someone who has an afrezza prescription can see on the packaging what codes from Sanofi relate to what permutations of cartridge size? Then we will in due course be able to spot what the new Mannkind 'fifth' label relates to more easily. Perhaps its a bulk pack of 12 unit or 8 unit cartridges, which I think is something some users would welcome? So maybe something very slightly splashy willl be announced in terms of a new pack size or strength, soon. From www.rxlist.com/afrezza-drug/indications-dosage.htmI just made an account on that website (findacode.com) and interpret the following: I should say, however, that the website states that each of these codes was deleted around 2015-03-31. Which might mean they are pre-Sanofi codes. I don't really know whether they become active again once MannKind takes over. Maybe these are how they are actually shipped to Sanofi, as I recall Matt or Hakan discussing the fact that they don't actually do the packaging in their factory. [..... quote shortened by me to save space.... ] Thanks for the above, Cathode. The best current available evidence therefore seems to be that the mannkind codes are old ones, but what is odd is that it showed up on google as being modified with last 24 hours on the finadcode page so I suppose that leaves open the possibility that mannkind is reverting to the old mannkind labelling codes when handover takes place. They will after all need their own codes once selling afrezza themselves from own inventory (or, for all I know, immediately, if they are selling existing inventory of afrezza with stick on labels to amend the details) so there need to be mannkind ndc codes, and taking an opportunity to supply good value bulk packs are higher doses might fit with user feedback and might shift the product faster. Sadly the FDA NDC code site sitll finds no hits for anythng relevant even for sanofi, so think they still have technical issues. |
|
|
|
Post by bradleysbest on Apr 4, 2016 11:17:52 GMT -5
Does anyone think the pricing (lower) issue is announced tomorrow? Just hope Matt's plan is implemented very soon since he gets it back tomorrow.....
|
|
|
|
Post by factspls88 on Apr 4, 2016 14:45:47 GMT -5
Does anyone think the pricing (lower) issue is announced tomorrow? Just hope Matt's plan is implemented very soon since he gets it back tomorrow..... No clue, but I would be quite happy if it were announced tomorrow and, more importantly, that the price was directly competitive to the major mealtime RAAs. A price pullback would signal a major strategic shift that the street would be quite happy about imo. |
|
